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Good article. Thx for the link.
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Quote:
Good article. Thx for the link.
+1 this guy makes some valid points in his reasoning.
Later,
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Right, I've been talking about this off and on here for years. I'm in LA and that's the way it is. The idea that this guy who wrote the article thinks that trying to reason with a club owner is going to get him anywhere is wishful thinking. He's assuming there's an audience out there who gives a crap about what we consider to be live music. There isn't. Not anymore. Don't be fooled by a few friends and relatives who love our stuff. That's not a career or a following. The reason the bands play for free is they need a venue to make a decent video that they can put up on their website and link to on Facebook and all the social media sites they use. Most here hardly know anything about that but that's the name of the game. I just mentioned a week or so ago my little story about a similar club owner who was in the club listening to us but insisted on our website and Facebook links so he could check how many "friends" we had. Since we're a bunch of old farts it's called Face what?? The restaurant that I used to do Friday night jazz gigs for over 5 years down on the pier in Hermosa Beach changed owners last year. It went from Sangria's, a good Italian place with sidewalk seating and a combination sports bar/lounge where we played to the American Junkie. Nice, eh? No, they're not referring to drugs they're referring to sports junkies. The place is absolutely packed on a Friday night. Who cares about a band? What to know what's really happening now? Check out the Palms in Vegas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlMe5eeXqysThe Lounge at the Palms is one of the hippest places there. I just happened to see this just this morning surfing Youtube by accident. This video is from 2006 so I went to the Palms website and found this guy Stendek is the main Friday night's entertainment right now this week so he must be a hit. He's the 2010 Boss looping champion. Gee, I'm so impressed I can't stand it. I forced myself to look up that looping contest and there must have been 2000 kids there yelling and screaming. I'm not saying he doesn't have any talent, he can do a few things but Friday night prime time at the Palms? You kidding me? Anybody want to go to Vegas with the wife, make some reservations and go see this guy? At least they do have a kick ass band called the Fat City Horns in the rotation but on Monday nights. That's the absolute worst night of the week in Vegas but they are good so there's some real music going on there. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Pay to play has been an LA staple for decades. Back in '72 I accompanied an acquaintance (who managed a friend's band) to Gazzarri's once to drop off the “Pay” to the booker at Gazzarri's . It wasn't cash for tickets though. It was a more nefarious substance than that. Bands would kill to get onstage at Gazzarri's or the Whiskey back then. That was when the A & R people would actually go to hear shows. They were signing everybody with a pulse.
It was different at the Troub, though. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubadour_(Los_Angeles).
It was more open to new talent and musician-friendly.
As for Mr. Looper, my favorite comment was this:
“music, for those that dont know, is hard. very hard. this, this is a born gift gift of music! “
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Quote:
At least they do have a kick ass band called the Fat City Horns in the rotation but on Monday nights.
Is there any reference to a guy named Abe LaMarca with the Fat City Horns? He is from Cleveland and I know his band has SOME City Horns in it. It may be Tower City Horns though, as Tower City is a complex in Cleveland.
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90 db yep, so right. My sister did one of those at the Whiskey maybe 15 years ago. Maybe 6 or 8 years ago the bass player booked us as a trio with me playing organ bass at a nice coffee shop on Fairfax. They "paid" us $50 for the parking plus a sandwich and drink. We did 2 of those "gigs" and then we were told they weren't paying anything any more, not even free sandwiches. They told us they had so many bands asking about playing there for nothing, they figured why pay anything? And I don't blame them, as a business why spend if you don't have to? Nobody cared we were pro level jazz players either. Sure there's always a few jazz fans but not enough to matter. I remember a gig I did at a country club and we started out with some jazz but no, all they wanted was light commercial listening and dance stuff. The 22 year old bartender loved the jazz though and knew the original artists that did them. It was nice to talk to a young guy who was totally into it but it still didn't matter he was the only one who cared. We did Marqueritaville, Brown Eyed Girl and all that similar crap. Again.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob -
Is Dave Pike still kicking around there? We used to listen to him down at a little beach place in Newport.
Regards,
Bob
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+1 for Dave Pike. Great vibes player; spent a lot of time at clubs in Albany.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Dave is one of the things we really miss about SoCal. He is a monster on the vibes, and a nice guy as well.
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Sorry, I guess I missed him, don't recognize the name. I just did a search for him in Los Angeles and the last thing I see is from the LA Times in 1996.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Would it be inappropriate to say that things are this way given supply and demand ? There are just so many people playing music out there, and wanting and willing to pay for free, that these less-talented people/bands are filling the needs of the club owners and crowds, and even willing to pay to play in order to do that. When the supply of musician's that can satisfy the typical restaurant dining crowd, then the pay will go up. There must be far more mediocre musicians out there than there were when you guys enjoyed your 'hey day' generations ago. And the availability of low cost, online lessons and practicing programs is fueling that. That's why I've often made a comment regarding "I don't know how anyone makes money in the music business today if you're not a pop superstar." DJ's can 'generate' enough music for a crowd, and to one of Pat's previous points - there are not enough musically educated, or 'educated' to the point of knowing, seeking out, and being willing to pay the the difference for a band that has mastered their instruments vs. a mediocre band that brings friends and family, or offers a one man show.
There was a time - I'm guessing early 1900's and before, where most people that played music did so in their home for the social aspects, entertaining themselves and their guests, and the joy of playing music. Now, with all the video games, flat screen TV's and great HBO series and movies (and don't forget Downton Abbey !) there's even less need for all the work required to learn to play an instrument (gratification is too delayed).
I think the only chance most above average musicians have in generating some decent side-money from music is in giving lessons - and there, you're also competing with a group of less talented musicians willing to do it for much less money than makes it worthwhile for an experienced, educated, musician.
Times have changed - and so has the model of making money in music, and the hardest hit are those talented musicians that are not superstars.
...IMHO, from my personal observations. That's why I'm glad to have my 'day job' and do music as a hobby - and that's why I don't prioritize more of my time to become more of an expert musician. It will come as the rest of my life and personal priorities allows time for it. And I might even be one of those guys that occasionally plays a gig for very little money - but probably at a place that doesn't regularly pay money anyway.
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In my opinion, the heyday of music performing opportunities had very little to do with businesses hiring bands to help their businesses. Although that did happen, the bulk of my performing opportunities came from another source:
There was a sea of postwar youngsters who had time on their hands, and society was trying to figure out how to keep us out of trouble. As I recall, most of the gigs I played were sponsored by organizations, not by businesses.
<broken record>
Which is why I think the phenomenon will repeat when that same group hits retirement and has time on their hands again. From a sociological point of view, what do you DO with a large demographic that needs activities?
Several of the performing musicians in this forum have pointed out that rest homes typically have a budget for entertainment. This is consistent with the past... organizations sponsoring ways to keep a group occupied.
IOt's also worth noting that such gigs are among the few PAYING opportunities that consistently show up in lists of venues that are available these days.
</broken record>
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Quote:
There was a sea of postwar youngsters who had time on their hands, and society was trying to figure out how to keep us out of trouble. As I recall, most of the gigs I played were sponsored by organizations, not by businesses.
There is still a large group of youngsters that needs to be kept out of trouble...and music is a skill that requires a skilled professional to teach it properly and guide newcomers. So you would think there should still be such opportunities - but postwar youngsters did not have the technology, 2 kazillion TV shows from cable TV, video games, and (at least for those whose parents are involved) - homework requirements of today's youth.
But your points are well taken - organizatoins
Quote:
what do you DO with a large demographic that needs activities
How about putting some of them to work - even if it is a 'losing money' proposition. For example, in my opinion, every well-abled body person receiving a welfare check should be on-call for work. Now many of these people don't have the work skills, endurance, social skills, emotional intelligence, and motivation to work given the ease of obtaining that, e.g. unemployment check, for just sending out a few resumes and going on a few interviews (and how hard is it to fail at those if you like the work/reward ratio of an unemployment or welfare check - e.g. zero work / money is sent to you = zero over a number = INFINITE ration !!!)
Now - here's the problem - unions don't like the idea of somebody working and taking away some union worker's job that could be doing the same thing for fair pay. So we have our American stalemate - and we just give money out for no work.
How about this - to keep unions from going in a tizzy, and keep professional musicians employed. Everybody receiving a welfare or unemployment check is on call for 'music lessons'. The portion of welfare checks going to each person is slightly reduced AND they have to show up for music lessons where they are graded. Music to teach responsiblity, accountability, socialization skills, teamwork, etc. So if you receive benefits, you are on call to receive less benefits and be accountable to someone to keep a regular schedule, and do homework. Good for society, good for keeping up the work ethic and moral of unemployed/welfare recipients, and good for all of you professional musicians to teach not just music, but all those other things that go along with it ; )
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There are just so many people playing music out there, and wanting and willing to pay for free, that these less-talented people/bands are filling the needs of the club owners and crowds, and even willing to pay to play in order to do that.
I would disagree with the term "less talented". Colleges and universities are turning out monster players by the thousands every year and all of them are chasing a handful decent paying studio jobs. No, less talented is not it, these people can play and that's the problem.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Very interesting, Bob. Thanks for the link.
ROG.
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As a musician who makes my living from playing music I can equate to all points of view here, the chances are getting fewer to play (for me) being paid & obviously more for playing free. There is however one part of the industry that is thriving & that is synchronization for tv & film, its one of the last bastions where really making money is possible. Instead of crying over one's sort everyone should try & move with the times & search for new opportunities because they are there if you look hard enough & work hard enough to make it possible.
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Sounds good to me, please define what "syncronization for TV and film" is, what kind of experience are they looking for and how did you get a gig doing it.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Quote:
Sounds good to me, please define what "syncronization for TV and film" is, what kind of experience are they looking for and how did you get a gig doing it.
Bob
this explains what syncronization is:
web page
For my part, I got to do this by friends who were already doing it & its usually a case of "who you know" BUT there are plenty of opportunities, you could approach publishers with your music & also production music libraries(just google production music). There are whole libraries of every sort of music especially tailored for film & tv. The main thing is that your music should be deemed good enough (by them) & experience is not particularly necessary in the beginning but of course you will know more whats needed when you do gain a bit of experience.
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