Previous Thread
Index
Next Thread
Print Thread
Go To
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
When I posted a song a while back recorded using Sinsy, Don Gaynor had expressed hope that with this sort of technology he'd be able to sing again. While the fine folk at DynaVox haven't gotten back to him yet, I thought I might have a go at solving the problem.

You may have noticed I've been a bit absent from the board since then. blush

Here's the result: Loch Lomond (with harmony)

It's "state of the art" 1980's formant synthesis. It's not the technology I'd intended to use, but that's a rather long story. I'm still working out the bugs in the code. It's not ready for end users, but it's finally "singing."

There's a bit of post-processing on the vocals. I used the PG Vinyl plugin to reduce some of the popping on consonants, and a low-pass filter to kill some of the high-end noise. I've also run things through EZ Mix to add some reverb and compression.

Most of the phonemes are fairly acceptable, but there's an /H/ and /L/ that seem to have gone missing. I've only tweaked one of the phonemes. At 0:15 there's what sounds like a breath noise. It's actually a bug, so I lowered the volume there. (I intend to add support for breaths at some point).

The accompaniment is PJONPBA.STY (PopBalladPiano & Ac.Guitar[85RS]). I guessed at the chords from the sheet music, so there may be some clinkers in there. The harmony is just thirds above the melody, so there may be some clinkers there, too.


-- David Cuny

My virtual singer development blog
Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
User Showcase
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987
I love it David! Thanki, mate!

Now you may understand the difficulty I ran into trying to overcome inertia and reluctance to change on the part of Corporations, especially from ootsiders. Very frustrating and disheartening. It's extremely difficult to keep on slugging when we see no progress. I have several dead-end projects that I am stymied on including "The iPod Project" (qv).

Last edited by Don Gaynor; 05/29/13 03:48 PM. Reason: To make a semblance of cents to Canadian readers and moderators.
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
Hopefully, I can shape it into something useful. I've taken a couple of days off work in an effort to get this into shape, and I've just found a major portion of the code that needs to be rewritten.

Once this is stable, I still need to set up some sort of front end for it. The current plan is to have it read MusicXML files. I've got some code I've written for a different project I should be able to re-purpose.

I also need to write some code to do dictionary lookup. I've got a nice hyphenated phonetic dictionary, so hopefully the majority of that work is already done.

But... I still need to stabilize this code.

If you're really lucky, this will give incentive to DynaVox to finish up their project, and you'll get some real voice synthesis. wink


-- David Cuny

My virtual singer development blog
Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
User Showcase
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,047
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,047
David,

This effort you have made into this cutting edge technology is outstanding.
I've spent thousands of hours since the 70's working on coding projects that
had never been done before. Can really appreciate the efforts you have put into
this.

Hang in there and continuing good efforts on your "projects". Note didn't say
good luck. Patience and stamina, be with you.


FrankB

Down The Street vs2015 12-03-2014
Win7, AMD QuadA8-5500,16GB,2TeraHD, Komplete 10
PG Ultra Plus 2016,Alesis 12USB, Sonar Platinum
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
Originally Posted By: seeker
This effort you have made into this cutting edge technology is outstanding.


Yes, cutting edge 1980's technology at it's best. wink

This is about four generations removed from current voice synthesis technology. You might recall S.A.M. (Software Automatic Mouth), which was the basis of MacInTalk. If you play with the demo on that page (decompiled from assembly into C, and then converted into JavaScript!), you can hear the familial resemblance.

Interestingly, the company that put out S.A.M. is still in business as SoftVoice, Inc., and it was their demo of Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star that convinced me that while formant synthesis might not create realistic results, it might be "good enough" for my purposes. Since they've been doing this for the last 30 years, I think their example is probably as good as this technology gets.


-- David Cuny

My virtual singer development blog
Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
User Showcase
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,888
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,888
Hi David,

a milestone in your efforts. Following your blog I know
what a lot of work this was and still is.

Guenter

User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
The next step it to make this usable.

I'd like to write a UI that displays the music on a staff, and integrates with the CMU phonetic dictionary. Nothing terribly complex - just good enough to "get the job done." It'll output a .wav file, which BiaB can load.

The rest is up to Don. whistle


-- David Cuny

My virtual singer development blog
Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
User Showcase
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,885
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 12,885
David,

I commend you on the effort that this must require. Standing ovation for that, alone. Bravo.

floyd

User Showcase
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,086
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,086
Kudos David. What a thoughtful thing to do - not to mention all the time and effort involved. I'm sure it will bring Don and others lots of fun in making their music when you're done.

User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
Thanks! smile


-- David Cuny

My virtual singer development blog
Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
User Showcase
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,495
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,495
Hi David,

This is amazing! I can't even begin to comprehend the amount of effort that must have been involved. You realize that you'll have to change your signature's saying now! "Loch Lomond" is all about 'voice control' at it's absolute cleverest smile

Regards,
Noel


MY SONGS...
Audiophile BIAB 2026
User Showcase
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,109
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,109
David,

I've got to be honest and say that my (very) first impression of this was that the timing of your presentation couldn't have been worse, considering the fact that Guenter has recently posted some excellent projects using a more advance synthetic voice. Comparisons are inevitable, and you are at a disadvantage being a single developer working for free without any kind of subsidy.

But the more I listen and compare your synth voice to the one Guenter is using, the more impressed I am with yours.

The biggest difference to my ear is that yours has a pronounced artifact where the syllables are joined together, whereas the other engine has figured out a way to blend the syllables more smoothly... which, in a song environment is definitely more musical.

Having dealt with artifacts when blending snippets in a DAW, I have to wonder if it would help to fade each of your separate syllables on both ends so the sharp edge that causes the artifact is less pronounced when they are joined together.

In the final analysis, all comparisons aside, what you have accomplished here is PHENOMEnal! (pun intended)

I wish you much luck with further development and I look forward to hearing more examples as time goes on.

Last edited by Pat Marr; 06/01/13 12:24 PM.
User Showcase
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 16,073
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 16,073
The patience of Job must have gone into that. I can't imagine the code (and I used to do a little programming). Gonna be fascinating to see how it plays out. Thanks.


Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more.
If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks!
Our Videos
User Showcase
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
dcuny Offline OP
Veteran
OP Offline
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,187
Hi, Pat.

Thanks for the your response. Before getting into details, I should clarify: this project is just re-implementing what others have already done, and much better than me. From text to speech: The MITalk system (Allen) was a great resource for me. The technology is essentially abandoned for other, better approaches. I'll give an explanation why I was unable to go down that route.

Also, my immediate goal is to get Don something usable. If DynaVox finally gets him a better synthesis program, then, Hurrah!. No need for this program.


I'm aware of the Vocaloid software - I've got the Avanna as well, because it's probably got the best English accent of all the current Vocaloids.

I've also spent a lot of time looking at UTAU, a free synthetic singer written along the lines of Vocaloid.

In fact, my initial approach was exactly what you suggested: record various phonemes (using Vowel/Consonant/Vowel patterns), cross-fade them together, and use pitch shifting.

I've actually written a number of tools to do this. The stumbling block was the pitch shifting. The pitch shifting needs to shift some frequencies (the glottal pulse) and keep others fixed (the formants) or you get the "Mickey Mouse" effect.

BiaB uses the astonishingly good elastiq algorithm. I couldn't find any free libraries that gave decent results - even the RubberBand library, which has formant preservation, didn't do an acceptable job.

I tried FFT-based pitch shifting, but didn't have much luck.

I got better results with PSOLA (Pitch Synchronous Overlap and Add), but there were significant artifacts: Here's an example.


The examples I'd heard of formant-based synthesis convinced me that while it lacked realism, it was capable of creating intelligible and musical synthesis. I think you'll agree that, with some tuning, this synthesizer may not create realistic voices, but they can be understandable.


And to be honest, I've been focused on just getting the code to work. I've spent very little time on fine-tuning the phonemes. This is alpha-software, and there's lots of room for improvement.

That said, in Text-to-Speech Synthesis, Paul Taylor argues that formant-based synthesis is intrinsically un-natural because it can't capture the details of real speech, so I don't hold high hopes for it.

I've considered mixing pre-recorded audio with synthesized sounds like eSpeak, but that raises plenty of issues. And there's still the issue of handling sounds like /B/, /D/ and /G/, which are voiced and consonants. So for the moment, I'm sticking with "pure" synthesis.

I hope that somewhat explains that approach I've taken. Despite the many flaws, I figured it was time to move ahead with the project. For the moment, I'll be focusing on creating a UI.


-- David Cuny

My virtual singer development blog
Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
User Showcase
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,497
Veteran
Offline
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,497
Hi, David !

I am no expert on these matters
which maybe makes me better judging
the end result from a listeners point of view ?
I am referring to the tune. Maybe I am
partial as this tune has a special meaning
for me. You see, once I sang this song to my
dear wife Beni at the shore of this Loch and little
did I know then, that the words held a prophecy
as "me and my true love would never be allowed
to meet again on the bonnie, bonnie banks of Loch Lomond" !
She died of cancer on October the 26 th 2011 !

I think you have done a marvellous job David !
Keep on the good work !

Cheers
Dani

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Go To

Link Copied to Clipboard
ChatPG

Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.

ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.

PG Music News
Update to Build 10 of RealBand® 2026 for Windows®!

If you're already using RealBand 2026 for Windows, download build 10 to get all the latest additions and enhancements.

Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® users: Build 904 now available!

If you're already using Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, make sure to grab the latest update! Build 904 is now available for download and includes the newest additions and enhancements from our team.

Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® users: Build 1237 is now available!

Already a Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows user? Stay up to date and download the build 1237 to get all the latest additions and enhancements.

PowerTracks Pro 2026 for Windows is Here!

PowerTracks 2026 is here—bringing powerful new enhancements designed to make your production workflow faster, smoother, and more intuitive than ever.

The enhanced Mixer now shows Track Type and Instrument icons for instant track recognition, while a new grid option simplifies editing views. Non-floating windows adopt a modern title bar style, replacing the legacy blue bar.

The Master Volume is now applied at the end of the audio chain for consistent levels and full-signal master effects.

Tablature now includes a “Save bends when saving XML” option for improved compatibility with PG Music tools. Plus, you can instantly match all track heights with a simple Ctrl-release after resizing, and Add2 chords from MGU/SGU files are now fully supported... and more!

Get started today—first-time packages start at just $49.

Already using PowerTracks Pro Audio? Upgrade for as little as $29 and enjoy the latest improvements!

Order now!

Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows Special Offers End Tomorrow (January 15th, 2026) at 11:59 PM PST!

Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PST on Thursday, January 15, 2026!

We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!

Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.

Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.

There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!

Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Windows to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!

Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.

If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!

Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!

Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!

We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!

There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.

When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.

Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.

Happy New Year!

Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.

Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!

Forum Statistics
Forums57
Topics86,092
Posts800,094
Members40,033
Most Online44,367
Mar 4th, 2026
Newest Members
Christian210, jaycallahanart, misoprostol, roshan2121, Din
40,033 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
MarioD 146
rsdean 95
DC Ron 89
WaoBand 85
DrDan 64
Today's Birthdays
astore, Mark lee, PianistNZ
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5