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Good question, Alan. You've managed to peg my ...
I DON'T KNOW-O-METER
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Hi Alan, A good example of what you're talking about is Eva Cassidy's version of "Over The Rainbow" (found at the below link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RDmXsGeiF8I reckon that if Eva's version was played as an instrumental, no-one would know what the original song was. There are little snippets of phrases that hint at the original melody but, for the most part, the melody is essentially a whole new song. I suspect that upon hearing it, people would feel a sense of familiarity but not necessarily know why. Since chord progressions are generally not copyrightable, if Eva sang different words, I bet that this would standalone as a whole new song. For what it's worth: Using a chord progression from a song and writing a new melody over the top of it is recommended by just about every songwriting book I've read as a great way to start learning how to song-write. Regards, Noel
Last edited by Noel96; 05/25/13 06:28 AM.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Hi Alan,
Much of this debate reminds me of a story they tell about the sculptor Rodin. Someone asked Rodin, "How do you sculpt an elephant?" Rodin replied, "Well, you start with a big block of stone and chop away anything that doesn't look like an elephant." Incidentally, what Rap "music" does is start with the elephant and slap sufficient concrete onto it until you get back the block of stone.
This is an old philosophical chestnut. Since things are defined by their features, how many features must be altered or removed before the thing in question fails to qualify as its former self. Take, on the one hand, some cattle and, on the other, some steaks. Obviously a cow is not a steak and vice versa. At what point in the butchering process can you point and say, "There! Stop there - now its not a cow." A less frivolous example concerns how modern homo sapiens stands in relation to its anthropoid ancestors. Was there a "first" homo sapiens? In a continuum of small adaptions it's hard to know.
For the very same reason, all other considerations put aside, the idea of a cover song is inherently vague.
In conclusion, let me say that none of my posts have been taken down by moderators, and in past discussions, I have offered over and over to take down any post that offends any member for any reason. I haven't received my first such request but I continue to maintain this policy. I would never be offended by such a request precisely because, as has been pointed out, this is a civil Forum of many talented, thoughtful and articulate people all of whose opinions get the same weight.
With kind regards,
Aleck
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For the very same reason, all other considerations put aside, the idea of a cover song is inherently vague. and yet the the idea of an original song seems pretty easy to grasp
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having said all that, I think its safe to say that your posts are going over well, and I doubt that anybody wants you to stop. *I* sure don't
I just want to hear what you'd come up with given the challenge of writing a totally original song that borrows neither theme nor title nor melody nor lyrics from a well known song.
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hi alack this is a great forum lots of great feed back and comments that encourage people like myself its a journey of learning not having the theory back ground and don,t sing well I rely on my ears and try to do intrumentals I respect all musicians here who contribute there songs and work and I like your guitar work and the notes you choose very tasteful I have to say I enjoy lots of genres and love to here more from musicians that are successful out thanks eric
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Pat,
You got it - the original tune you ask for.
Aleck
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Pat,
You got it - the original tune you ask for.
Aleck Thanks Aleck, but... I don't see a link in your post... is it somewhere else?
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Another great performance Aleck. Really enjoyed the locked-hands approach.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Great guitar & bass playing!! Thanks
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But what if someone were to post a so called 'original' composition that used the melodic outline and form of a well known song changing a note here or there perhaps adding some additional notes but not in a way that really disguised it's identity? Perhaps a chord or two is changed but again the functional structure is retained with all the points of resolution clearly following the original tune.
Assuming the tune was well enough known to be recognizable in the first instance, what would be the attitude of the forum towards this kind of re-creation? And would such a tune qualify as a contrafact at all?
Alan I'm very new here and to BIAB. I've only done one original song using BIAB as my test subject. Regarding the above post could one say the following?: If a verbatim song structure is easily recognizable by someone would that not define it, by default, as contrafact or derivative? Would one say that not enough original thought/modifications were implemented in said song for one to actually call it an 'original'? I think much of this is inherently determined by each of our own personal criteria/interpretations. I can easily understand the diversity of opinions on this subject. Hopefully, I stayed within the context of the entire thread of opinions. Feliz Viernes to all....carry on. 
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You keep teasing us! Where is it? -Scott
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Who would have ever thought that a Jazz performance would get 600+ (and counting) listeners?
Quoting that revered philosopher of old NY radio DJ's, "Jocko" (of Jocko's Rocker Ship): GREAT KOOGA-MOOGA!!
You should also be warned about Jocko's judgment: He once introduced one of Jerry Lee Lewis' most famous songs by saying:
JACK BE NIMBLE, JACK BE QUICK, JACK JUMPED OVER THE CANDLE STICK ...
... and now, here's Jerry Lee Lewis with ... "GREAT BALLS OF FIRE!!"
And Jocko was promptly fired. Nevertheless, I want thank all you who commented favorably, and say one more time, "GREAT KOOGMA-MOOGA, GREAT BALLS OF FIRE!!
Aleck
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I think it's safe to conclude that, if the numbers aren't lying, one answer to the "Problem(s) with Jazz" is now forthcoming. Many responses to my original post emphasized accessibility, a clear line-of-sight to the melody even when it is being transformed under improvisation.
And there was the oft quoted word, "noodling" as in "aimless noodling, possibly at 120 mph". Well, you just can't noodle with chords or play them at 120 mph, although I must say I do try.
At first I thought smooth jazz might be the accessible music that could attract the interest of Forum members. But numbers don't lie. Cerveza! will wind up getting more listeners than any of the smooth jazz, parody tunes, funk, vocals, or blues that I've posted. Because the improvisation is melodic. That's progress.
Aleck
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The problem with Jazz is that there is wayyyy toooo much talk about it and too little playing it.
Later,
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I wish that I could play guitar and bass like that!
IMHO this puts you in the upper class of jazz guitarists and justifies your place along side greats like Tony Mottola, Johnny Smith and others.
This is a keeper.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
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I wish that I could play guitar and bass like that!
IMHO this puts you in the upper class of jazz guitarists and justifies your place along side greats like Tony Mottola, Johnny Smith and others.
This is a keeper.
+1 (even though I pick on him)
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Hey Mario,
I've never received such a profound complement. Wow! As a token of appreciation my next post is directed to you, compagno.
I hope I don't screw it up, but I can tell you that Pat Marr liked Blues for Pat the cat with the black hat. I'd like to keep batting 1000 if I can.
Aleck
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