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I would like to expand my R16 with another R16 to get 16 track recordings, but now I see that zoom warns that it might give a gap up to two mS between the recorders, will such a gap mean that I will have to slide some tracks to get them in sync or will it not be recognisable?
Strat!
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Hi Stratocaster.
I can't see that you're going to have a problem with up to 2ms. Actually trying to time slip accurately to 2ms would be a challenge in any case.
In the days when we used to sync two 24 track tape machines by running time code onto each machine and using an auto-locator we'd have been delighted with 2ms. Apart from the fact that it took about five seconds of running to lock the machines together, the wow and flutter meant that we never had as accurate a sync as with computers, but no one seemed to notice.
The only question which springs to mind is - wouldn't there be a cheaper and more reliable way of getting 16 tracks?
ROG.
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You may very well have to slide some tracks.
However ..
with Resolution set to max, and an assumed tempo of 120 BPM ..
it is possible to slide selected tracks to much smaller amounts
If my math is right;
60000 ms per minute
At tempo of 120BPM = 500ms per beat
divided by 3840 divisions per beat (resolution)
equals .13 ms per division
You can slide what ya want where ya want it pretty accurately
Last edited by rharv; 06/14/13 06:44 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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You may very well have to slide some tracks. Hi rharv. I don't usually disagree with you, but there are just a couple of points... If we assume Zoom A is the master clock and Zoom B is the slave, then Zoom B is going to run 2ms behind Zoom A. If all the tracks are recorded from scratch with this set-up the tracks will still play back in sync. The only time a problem would arise is if the tracks were transferred in bulk to another medium where they were all running on the same machine. Then the tracks from Zoom B would have the 2ms error. However, we're not told that this is,in fact, the case. Second point is - can we hear a 2ms error? If you get a guitarist to play a series of notes to a click track and then look at the start time of each note, you'll see variations. Multiply this by sixteen tracks, where some start times are early and some late and it's difficult to spot 2ms overall. This is why we got away with it using tape. In fact, if you record a snare drum hit simultaneously onto tracks one and twenty four of a two inch multi-track tape, you will get time smearing when you play it back. I will concede that if all tracks are quantized VSTi the situation is not quite the same and I respect your maths for performing the correction. ROG.
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I aim to tranfer all the 16 track files to Real band by moving the SD Card to my PC, as I guess the two R16's files all will be written to the host's SD ?
Strat
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I suspect not, but it's something to check out in the Zoom manual.
I would expect each machine to record in isolation to it's own SD card with just a clock signal being sent from the host to the slave.
ROG.
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I guess my point was that if you need to slide them, it's no big deal and you can get them as accurate as you want. I wasn't arguing with you either ROG, but rather supplementing your answer and encouraging the OP to try it, as there would not be an unsolvable issue with the lag. Funny part is, once the files are transferred to RB it will likely appear that the Host machine's tracks are behind (not the slave) .. since it is the clock that will be off and not the actual audio. If the Slave clock marks a spot in the recording (start of audio for example) and the Host marks that spot 2 MS ahead of that, the host audio will appear to be have begun behind that spot. 
Last edited by rharv; 06/15/13 04:50 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I would like to expand my R16 with another R16 to get 16 track recordings, but now I see that zoom warns that it might give a gap up to two mS between the recorders, will such a gap mean that I will have to slide some tracks to get them in sync or will it not be recognisable?
Strat! NO
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http://www.recordinginstitute.com/da154/ARP/chap3Sig/0304delcor.htmlThe article gives a good idea of what 2 Ms is sound-wise. Maybe I'm overly fussy but I'd probably want to slide the tracks. Depending on what was being recorded of course.
Last edited by rharv; 06/15/13 05:30 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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rharv.
Much of what the article talks about is a delay in the range of 15ms+ and I'm quite in agreement that this can be audible. However, I'm still not sure about 2ms.
The article makes much of drum mic technique, but if we start to look at things in that depth, we find that an audience, listening live, hears the snare drum 2ms after the kick drum, but 1ms ahead of the floor tom. Should we, therefore attempt to arrange the drums in a straight line?
Wait a minute! What happens then, to the people sitting at the edges of the hall? They might also get the guitar and bass up to 5ms apart if the respective amps are at extreme edges of the stage.
As you say, we each make our own choices, but for me this approach is too academic. We're in danger of trying to make the recording more perfect than real life.
Above all, no offence meant.
ROG.
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Hey Guys!
I gather that the 2mS delay should present no problem whatsoever and we can be confident that investing in buying one more R16 will be no Waste of Money, is that what I hear you say? :-)
Thanks!
Strat
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Hi Stratocaster.
That would seem to be about the size of it.
If you need to time slip, then as rharv correctly says, it can be accurately done. It's all down to what you yourself hear when you try it.
I think rharv and I are still friends, it's just that I can't resist the debate!
ROG.
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Old AudioMinds adage -
"learn to trust your ears"
2 MS is like moving a mic about 2' closer/farther from the source.
I agree that there will likely not be any basic timing issues noticed .. however there may be phase issues and other things that come into play as a side effect.
My original point was that *even if there is something noticeable* (due to 2 MS delay) it is easy to fix.
Yes, we are still friends, and I enjoy the conversations also
Last edited by rharv; 06/16/13 05:50 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Thanks for your inputs :-)
Think that when I after all have one R16, buying one more is the cheapest way to get a total of 16 recordable tracks, that way we can have all the band incl. drums miked up when rehearsing :-)
Strat
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I think that in this situation 2 mss will not be an issue however as Bob said is is easily fixed. Now to add a little to what Bob said. We spend lots of $$$ on speaker management systems to time align speakers in a box and there only inches behind or ahead of each other.Why? To prevent phase cancellation at the xover point. So it can matter but how many people can really hear it if not trained to listen for it.
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I'm glad somebody finally understood my point.
You may not hear the 2ms as 'time' but it can make a difference in a recording's end result.
Stratocaster -
If you want to test 2 ms open a new project in RB
Set tempo to 120 and resolution to 240 (Options - resolution)
Record 2 tracks of guitar (or anything)
Now slide one track over by a single 'tick'.
That's about 2.083 ms
See if you notice anything.
In reality it will likely only matter if you have multiple mics in play at the same time in a recording, but it is something to watch for.
I've been asked to master recordings that were not corrected for time .. and it's awful hard to fix once the tracks are mixed. I've sent some back to be remixed because of it.
You can't remove phase cancellation after the fact because it is already missing data!
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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But surely, phase cancellation isn't what the OP is all about?
It's about different recorded tracks being 2ms apart, which isn't going to cause phase cancellation. Doesn't phase cancellation occur when a copy of the same program material is fed back in with a delay? This is, after all why we do separate mono mixes for AM radio in cases where the stereo mix uses a lot of time-based stereo effects such as chorus and flanging.
Just a thought..
ROG.
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Recording in a live situation (his band he said if I recall) and having bleed over in the mics, 2ms delay *may* factor in.
Won't know until he tries and every recording he does may be different.
It's just something to watch out for.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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The manual doesn't go much in depth regarding linking two R16's, it doesn't say anything about SD Cards, it says how to connect the two R16's with a USB cable and how to put them into a Master/slave state. The command keys on the master: play/record/FF/stop, will also control the slave. My trials show that Rog is right in assuming that each R16 must hold an SD, and when creating a new project it must be done on both the master and the slave!
Thanks for your help!
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