|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
I would like to expand my R16 with another R16 to get 16 track recordings, but now I see that zoom warns that it might give a gap up to two mS between the recorders, will such a gap mean that I will have to slide some tracks to get them in sync or will it not be recognisable?
Strat!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347 |
Hi Stratocaster.
I can't see that you're going to have a problem with up to 2ms. Actually trying to time slip accurately to 2ms would be a challenge in any case.
In the days when we used to sync two 24 track tape machines by running time code onto each machine and using an auto-locator we'd have been delighted with 2ms. Apart from the fact that it took about five seconds of running to lock the machines together, the wow and flutter meant that we never had as accurate a sync as with computers, but no one seemed to notice.
The only question which springs to mind is - wouldn't there be a cheaper and more reliable way of getting 16 tracks?
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147 |
You may very well have to slide some tracks.
However ..
with Resolution set to max, and an assumed tempo of 120 BPM ..
it is possible to slide selected tracks to much smaller amounts
If my math is right;
60000 ms per minute
At tempo of 120BPM = 500ms per beat
divided by 3840 divisions per beat (resolution)
equals .13 ms per division
You can slide what ya want where ya want it pretty accurately
Last edited by rharv; 06/14/13 06:44 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347 |
You may very well have to slide some tracks. Hi rharv. I don't usually disagree with you, but there are just a couple of points... If we assume Zoom A is the master clock and Zoom B is the slave, then Zoom B is going to run 2ms behind Zoom A. If all the tracks are recorded from scratch with this set-up the tracks will still play back in sync. The only time a problem would arise is if the tracks were transferred in bulk to another medium where they were all running on the same machine. Then the tracks from Zoom B would have the 2ms error. However, we're not told that this is,in fact, the case. Second point is - can we hear a 2ms error? If you get a guitarist to play a series of notes to a click track and then look at the start time of each note, you'll see variations. Multiply this by sixteen tracks, where some start times are early and some late and it's difficult to spot 2ms overall. This is why we got away with it using tape. In fact, if you record a snare drum hit simultaneously onto tracks one and twenty four of a two inch multi-track tape, you will get time smearing when you play it back. I will concede that if all tracks are quantized VSTi the situation is not quite the same and I respect your maths for performing the correction. ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
I aim to tranfer all the 16 track files to Real band by moving the SD Card to my PC, as I guess the two R16's files all will be written to the host's SD ?
Strat
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347 |
I suspect not, but it's something to check out in the Zoom manual.
I would expect each machine to record in isolation to it's own SD card with just a clock signal being sent from the host to the slave.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147 |
I guess my point was that if you need to slide them, it's no big deal and you can get them as accurate as you want. I wasn't arguing with you either ROG, but rather supplementing your answer and encouraging the OP to try it, as there would not be an unsolvable issue with the lag. Funny part is, once the files are transferred to RB it will likely appear that the Host machine's tracks are behind (not the slave) .. since it is the clock that will be off and not the actual audio. If the Slave clock marks a spot in the recording (start of audio for example) and the Host marks that spot 2 MS ahead of that, the host audio will appear to be have begun behind that spot. 
Last edited by rharv; 06/15/13 04:50 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021 |
I would like to expand my R16 with another R16 to get 16 track recordings, but now I see that zoom warns that it might give a gap up to two mS between the recorders, will such a gap mean that I will have to slide some tracks to get them in sync or will it not be recognisable?
Strat! NO
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147 |
http://www.recordinginstitute.com/da154/ARP/chap3Sig/0304delcor.htmlThe article gives a good idea of what 2 Ms is sound-wise. Maybe I'm overly fussy but I'd probably want to slide the tracks. Depending on what was being recorded of course.
Last edited by rharv; 06/15/13 05:30 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347 |
rharv.
Much of what the article talks about is a delay in the range of 15ms+ and I'm quite in agreement that this can be audible. However, I'm still not sure about 2ms.
The article makes much of drum mic technique, but if we start to look at things in that depth, we find that an audience, listening live, hears the snare drum 2ms after the kick drum, but 1ms ahead of the floor tom. Should we, therefore attempt to arrange the drums in a straight line?
Wait a minute! What happens then, to the people sitting at the edges of the hall? They might also get the guitar and bass up to 5ms apart if the respective amps are at extreme edges of the stage.
As you say, we each make our own choices, but for me this approach is too academic. We're in danger of trying to make the recording more perfect than real life.
Above all, no offence meant.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
Hey Guys!
I gather that the 2mS delay should present no problem whatsoever and we can be confident that investing in buying one more R16 will be no Waste of Money, is that what I hear you say? :-)
Thanks!
Strat
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347 |
Hi Stratocaster.
That would seem to be about the size of it.
If you need to time slip, then as rharv correctly says, it can be accurately done. It's all down to what you yourself hear when you try it.
I think rharv and I are still friends, it's just that I can't resist the debate!
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147 |
Old AudioMinds adage -
"learn to trust your ears"
2 MS is like moving a mic about 2' closer/farther from the source.
I agree that there will likely not be any basic timing issues noticed .. however there may be phase issues and other things that come into play as a side effect.
My original point was that *even if there is something noticeable* (due to 2 MS delay) it is easy to fix.
Yes, we are still friends, and I enjoy the conversations also
Last edited by rharv; 06/16/13 05:50 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
Thanks for your inputs :-)
Think that when I after all have one R16, buying one more is the cheapest way to get a total of 16 recordable tracks, that way we can have all the band incl. drums miked up when rehearsing :-)
Strat
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021 |
I think that in this situation 2 mss will not be an issue however as Bob said is is easily fixed. Now to add a little to what Bob said. We spend lots of $$$ on speaker management systems to time align speakers in a box and there only inches behind or ahead of each other.Why? To prevent phase cancellation at the xover point. So it can matter but how many people can really hear it if not trained to listen for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147 |
I'm glad somebody finally understood my point.
You may not hear the 2ms as 'time' but it can make a difference in a recording's end result.
Stratocaster -
If you want to test 2 ms open a new project in RB
Set tempo to 120 and resolution to 240 (Options - resolution)
Record 2 tracks of guitar (or anything)
Now slide one track over by a single 'tick'.
That's about 2.083 ms
See if you notice anything.
In reality it will likely only matter if you have multiple mics in play at the same time in a recording, but it is something to watch for.
I've been asked to master recordings that were not corrected for time .. and it's awful hard to fix once the tracks are mixed. I've sent some back to be remixed because of it.
You can't remove phase cancellation after the fact because it is already missing data!
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,347 |
But surely, phase cancellation isn't what the OP is all about?
It's about different recorded tracks being 2ms apart, which isn't going to cause phase cancellation. Doesn't phase cancellation occur when a copy of the same program material is fed back in with a delay? This is, after all why we do separate mono mixes for AM radio in cases where the stereo mix uses a lot of time-based stereo effects such as chorus and flanging.
Just a thought..
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,147 |
Recording in a live situation (his band he said if I recall) and having bleed over in the mics, 2ms delay *may* factor in.
Won't know until he tries and every recording he does may be different.
It's just something to watch out for.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RealBand
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604
Journeyman
|
|
OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 604 |
The manual doesn't go much in depth regarding linking two R16's, it doesn't say anything about SD Cards, it says how to connect the two R16's with a USB cable and how to put them into a Master/slave state. The command keys on the master: play/record/FF/stop, will also control the slave. My trials show that Rog is right in assuming that each R16 must hold an SD, and when creating a new project it must be done on both the master and the slave!
Thanks for your help!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box 2025 Italian Version is Here!
Cari amici
È stata aggerate la versione in Italiano del programma più amato dagli appassionati di musica, il nostro Band-in-a-Box.
Questo è il link alla nuova versione 2025.
Di seguito i link per scaricare il pacchetti di lingua italiana aggiornati per Band-in-a-Box e RealBand, anche per chi avesse già comprato la nuova versione in inglese.
Band-in-a-Box 2025 - Italiano
RealBand 2025 - Italiano
Band-in-a-Box 2025 French Version is Here!
Bonjour à tous,
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 pour Windows est disponible en Français.
Le téléchargement se fait à partir du site PG Music
Pour ceux qui auraient déjà acheté la version 2025 de Band-in-a-Box (et qui donc ont une version anglaise), il est possible de "franciser" cette version avec les patchs suivants:
BIAB 2025 - francisation
RealBand 2025 - francisation
Voilà, enjoy!
Band-in-a-Box 2025 German Version is Here!
Update Your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 to Build 1128 for Windows Today!
Already using Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 1128 now from our Support Page to enjoy the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Stay up to date—get the latest update now!
Update to RealBand® 2025 Build 5 Windows Today!
Already using RealBand® 2025 for Windows®? Download Build 5 now from our Support Page to ensure you have the latest enhancements and improvements from our team.
Get the latest update today!
PowerTracks Pro Audio 2025 for Windows is Here!
PowerTracks Pro Audio 2025 is here! This new version introduces many features, including VST3 support, the ability to load or import a .FLAC file, a reset option for track height in the Tracks window, a taller Timeline on the Notation window toolbar, new freeze buttons in the Tracks window, three toolbar modes (two rows, single row, and none), the improved Select Patch dialog with text-based search and numeric patch display, a new button in the DirectX/VST window to copy an effects group, and more!
First-time packages start at only $49. Already a PowerTracks Pro Audio user? Upgrade for as little as $29!
www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.htm
Video: Summary of the New Band-in-a-Box® App for iOS®
Join Tobin as he takes you on a tour of the new Band-in-a-Box® app for iOS®! Designed for musicians, singer-songwriters, and educators, this powerful tool lets you create, play, and transfer songs effortlessly on your iPhone® or iPad®—anytime, anywhere.
Band-in-a-Box® for iOS® :Summary video.
Check out the forum post for more information.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums58
Topics84,121
Posts775,520
Members39,583
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean