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Correlation is not Causation, Keith. My point would be that if you had Muslims posting comments advancing their faith there would be comments in the negative. Same would be true if a Scientologist advocated for his religion. If they don't post, there is no opportunity to react. As Richard Dawkins often points out, we are all atheists, its just a matter of which god we don't believe in. That is usually determined by the culture that you were born into. One man's religion is another man's superstition.
Keith
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Dawkins is great. Hitch was even greater IMO.
Faith is the act of believing in something you know is not true.
- Bud
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I live among Alzheimer patients in various stages of the disease and know you have presence of mind. That leaves me to draw other conclusions about you. I would love to see you devote that still sharp mind to more constructive, positive pursuits. And if there's a problem with my memory, (as has been suggested), maybe Alzheimer's has kicked in.
I watched as my mother slowly deteriorated from that so maybe now it's my turn. If anyone wants to make fun of me for that, have at it if it'll make you feel better.
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As Richard Dawkins often points out, we are all atheists, its just a matter of which god we don't believe in. That is usually determined by the culture that you were born into. One man's religion is another man's superstition. by definition a culture is defined by the traits its members have in common. The members of this forum are largely from western cultures that are steeped in Christianity. So for the same reason that we communicate in the shared language of English and redirect people who try to communicate in a different language to a forum that speaks the language in question, we also tend to communicate in shared Christian ideology. There's nothing invasive about that at all, its just the way all groups function. Whats offensive is when the minority in a culture tries to recreate the culture in his own image by creating laws that require the existing culture to abandon its key characteristics. Bob was looking for a rule that specifically forbade the conversations he doesn't like. When he couldn't find one, he made a straw man appeal presenting such discussions as being injurious to the group in hopes that the group would agree and forum outrage would create the rule that doesn't exist, and that the forum members would enforce it with peer pressure. But the fact remains that the vast majority of forum members are not offended by references to prayer and Christianity, and only a handful of forum members ever support the recurring requests for such a ban. Furthermore it is mainly this censorship topic that stirs up strife. All the other faith-based discussion is benign and full of good will
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At any job, any office, any walk of life, any place etc., the subjects of religion and politics always bring up arguments. I would suggest that those wishing to discuss these subjects go to websites that cater to these subjects. I have no desire to discuss my religion or political view in the BIAB forum or read others posts about them. These two subjects are vastly different from jokes, health, families, etc. In my opinion, these two topics are almost always guaranteed to cause rancor, ill will and arguments. I normally ignore posts of these two subjects, in this thread, I felt I had to express my opinion. The only thing I care to read about in the BIAB forum, is to better my understanding of BIAB. Later, Ray
Last edited by raymb1; 06/26/13 09:45 AM.
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Faith is the act of believing in something you know is not true. You can't set up an experiment that empirically proves the existence of love, yet I think all of us would agree that love exists. If you object to the notion that God is an old man with flip-flops and a robe who sits in the clouds and hurls lightning bolts, no wonder you scoff at Christianity. That is a cartoonized misunderstanding of Christianity, and I object to that same idea of God. According to Christian theology, God is love. We believe in love because we see irrefutable evidence of it, even though we can not see it as a standalone entity. Having said that, here is the Christian definition of faith: "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"
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Bob was looking for a rule that specifically forbade the conversations he doesn't like. That's not true Pat. I actually enjoy debating religion and politics. It's just my experience that it almost always ends poorly. And I'm still convinced there was a rule against it previously, (besides the music only rule). I just think it's unfortunate that people demonize you if you have the audacity to disagree with them. That's happened to me quite a bit on here, but I still love the forum because there are so many good folks that I share common interests with. If PG doesn't have a specific rule against it, (besides the music only rule that we violate almost daily), then I have no objection. I do object to personal attacks from those who aren't capable of a rational conversation.
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According to Christian theology, God is love. Exactly the foundation upon which Joseph Fletcher based his arguments of contextual ethics. He was roundly condemned by fundamentalists, and although he started his professional life as an Episcopal priest, his reasoning eventually brought him to the conclusion that the biblical god does not exist. If god is love, then right and wrong are determined by what is the loving thing to do in all cases. As Jesus told the man who asked what the greatest law was, the answer was LOVE god and LOVE your neighbor. On this hang the whole law.
Keith
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I just think it's unfortunate that people demonize you if you have the audacity to disagree with them. I hope nothing I've said has made you feel demonized. I LIKE multiple opinions on diverse topics, as long as everybody gets to express their opinion. My part in this discussion is mainly to advocate minimal rules and maximum liberty. I don't think anybody needs to worry about the forum becoming a church. In sociological terms, whats happening here is FORMING STORMING NORMING and PERFORMING. All groups go through periodic re-evaluation of group consensus about how the group should interact. Once this discussion dies down it will be BIAB business as usual. We all agree that the forum is about PGMusic products in specific, and about music in general. I don't see that changing. And although there have been a few comments made that were indeed attacks on a person more than discussions of an idea, I still think threads like this (on an occasional basis, not as a steady diet) serve as pressure release valves, resulting in a more cohesive group. Everybody who had a point made it. In the end, nobody was forced to shut up. Nobody's points were universally accepted or universally demonized. I dare say we are all as friendly or as unfriendly as we were before the discussion. There were even a few really funny observations made, and I think that is the key to making a forum work. Laugh a lot. Fight never. Discuss when necessary.
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I have tried to stay out of this but I must say this now. A message asking for prayers for whatever reason is not a religious antagonistic message IMHO, and therefore should be allowed. If this offends you then don’t answer and bypass that thread.
A message that tries to start a war, one like this: I think (insert a religion of your choice) is a falsehood and should be wiped off the face of the earth. Message threads like that should be banned and taken of the board ASAP.
Just my thoughts.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor.
It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
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According to Christian theology, God is love. Exactly the foundation upon which Joseph Fletcher based his arguments of contextual ethics. He was roundly condemned by fundamentalists, and although he started his professional life as an Episcopal priest, his reasoning eventually brought him to the conclusion that the biblical god does not exist. If god is love, then right and wrong are determined by what is the loving thing to do in all cases. As Jesus told the man who asked what the greatest law was, the answer was LOVE god and LOVE your neighbor. On this hang the whole law. my point wasn't to make a dissertaion on faith as much as to point out that those who voice objections to Christian theology are usually objecting to a misunderstanding of it. Rarely do I think the same people would object to an accurate understanding of the topic in discussion.
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I have tried to stay out of this but I must say this now. A message asking for prayers for whatever reason is not a religious antagonistic message IMHO, and therefore should be allowed. If this offends you then don’t answer and bypass that thread.
A message that tries to start a war, one like this: I think (insert a religion of your choice) is a falsehood and should be wiped off the face of the earth. Message threads like that should be banned and taken of the board ASAP.
Just my thoughts.
excellent summary
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Faith is the act of believing in something you know is not true. Believing something that you know is not true, is clearly impossible since if you really know something is true I don't think you can maintain/support a belief intellectually. There are people out their who profess a belief in something that they don't believe in, and there are people out there that believe things that are not true. I think most people of faith really believe....up to a point.
Keith
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Pat, I hope nothing I've said has made you feel demonized. I LIKE multiple opinions on diverse topics, as long as everybody gets to express their opinion. Definitely not. You are probably the most rational person on the forum. I respect your opinion and appreciate your incites. Keep it up my friend!
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"Faith is the act of believing in something you know is not true."
This is a paraphrase of a line from Huckleberry Finn. It was meant to be funny, and to be read in context.
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Faith is the act of believing in something you know is not true. Believing something that you know is not true, is clearly impossible since if you really know something is true I don't think you can maintain/support a belief intellectually. There are people out their who profess a belief in something that they don't believe in, and there are people out there that believe things that are not true. I think most people of faith really believe....up to a point. I mostly agree. People believe right up until they realize it is all BS. Then many continue to claim to believe anyway.
Last edited by rubberball103; 06/26/13 12:36 PM.
- Bud
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At any job, any office, any walk of life, any place etc., the subjects of religion and politics always bring up arguments. I would suggest that those wishing to discuss these subjects go to websites that cater to these subjects. I have no desire to discuss my religion or political view in the BIAB forum or read others posts about them. These two subjects are vastly different from jokes, health, families, etc. In my opinion, these two topics are almost always guaranteed to cause rancor, ill will and arguments. I normally ignore posts of these two subjects, in this thread, I felt I had to express my opinion. The only thing I care to read about in the BIAB forum, is to better my understanding of BIAB. Later, Ray Yeah, but people who play music tend to be spiritual. It's hard not to be.
- Bud
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"Faith is the act of believing in something you know is not true."
This is a paraphrase of a line from Huckleberry Finn. It was meant to be funny, and to be read in context. You got it! And it was written by Mark Twain, someone who had utter comtempt for religion, ridiculed and lampooned it his whole life. So I think he meant what Huck said.
- Bud
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this very thread, now at 6 pages, is the poster child for why PG Music wisely wrote this rule,
9. All of the forums except for the Off Topic forum are for discussions of PG Music products only. The Off Topic forum is used for MUSIC-RELATED discussions that aren't about PG Music products. Please keep all your posts as constructive as possible.
the fact that they do not enforce it strictly is because usually it is not a problem. but plenty of times I have heard forum members chime in with "and this is music-related how?" on various non-music posts. so there is plenty of precedent for folks preferring we keep the conversation on music.
again, this is not the public square. this is a private forum owned and operated by PG Music. they get to make the rules and IMHO they have done so fairly clearly with #9 above.
bottom line is if you want to talk about your religion, whatever it may be, this is probably the wrong place to do it.
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