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Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8 |
Using 2012.5
For some time Concert Pitch Adjust hasn't worked at all on RealTracks but does work for MIDI tracks.
Just updated to build 65 hoping for a fix but no luck.
The worst are styles with mixed Real & MIDI tracks – part transposes and part doesn't.
Is this a known bug? A problem with BIAB MIDI settings or RealTracks files?
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Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh
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Hi zs,
My experience is that all the Realtracks are recorded at concert pitch and play back at concert pitch.
When you say "part transposes and part doesn't", I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that if you transpose a song from C to Eb (for example), the midi transposes but the Realtracks do not? If that is what you mean, then this is normal behaviour (at least for the PC version of the program). Realtracks need to be regenerated after a transposition because they are audio and not midi files.
Hope this helps,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8
Newbie
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8 |
Yes, that would be the MIDI transposes and the RealTracks do not - which of course renders it totally useless.
This shouldn't be "normal" behavior. It is a bug.
If I can type in another RealTrack chord a minor 3rd higher and BIAB has no problem playing that new chord up a m3,
then BIAB can give a "Concert Pitch Adjust" m3 higher automatically as well.
This is necessary to play along with BIAB on alto saxophone (or other transposing instruments) while reading chord names in the proper key for the instrument.
After all, changing the key works fine for RealTracks using the drop down menu for key signatures.
Also, Concert Pitch Adjust – depending on how they implemented it – doesn't necessarily need to do anything at all to audio files.
It's the text displayed on screen that needs to change.
i.e. I tell BIAB concert pitch adjust -9 or +3 (same change: down a M6 or up m3 - just a different octave), and the UI tells the audio rendering engine that I really asked for Eb7 instead of the C7 that I see on screen.
This is a major bug for those of us using BIAB for practicing or teaching of transposing instruments.
I can't require (or even recommend) those students to to buy BIAB as it stands now.
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Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,199
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Hi zs,
With every respect for your opinion, I'd just like mention that while transposing is very easy to achieve with midi because midi is simply alpha-numeric data (it doesn't involve actual sounds - they come later when a synth interprets the midi data), Realtracks are audio and this restricts what can be accomplished with them.
I don't know if you have ever tried adjusting the pitch of an audio file in a DAW but once the pitch changes more than one to two semitones, audio artifacts become very noticeable and interfere significantly with the quality of the sound. You can easily test this in Realband by creating a Realtrack track and then changing its pitch a third (say).
With Realtracks, the artists have recorded a number of patterns in different keys. When a user enters chords into BIAB, the program identifies which of these patterns are appropriate to the key signature being used. This means that the audio files are not pitch-shifted more than their audio integrity allows them to be shifted. That's why when a song has it's key changed and is regenerated, the Realtrack patterns often sound slightly different from what was being played before.
When a chord that's a 3rd higher is entered into BIAB, the program will regenerate the whole song. It doesn't simply modify the notes in the bar that had the chord changed.
It is not a bug that midi transposes and Realtracks do not. It is simply that the two different types of sound creation require different techniques to make them work effectively.
Kind regards,
Noel
Last edited by Noel96; 10/21/13 03:33 AM. Reason: still finding typos
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh
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Joined: Dec 2007
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OP
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Hi Noel,
I'm well aware of the difference between short sampled MIDI sounds and full length audio files as I formerly did software testing for a music synth company.
I've also recorded and released a fair amount of music using MOTU's Digital Performer and Apple's Logic Pro.
I also regularly use Transcribe! software to pitch shift audio files when transcribing or simply practicing a song in various keys.
And yes, I'm quite familiar with the artifact issues of big changes – especially with audio that has a lot of transients.
As you mentioned, BIAB RealTracks are recorded in multiple keys to allow the user to create songs in all 12 key centers.
Therefore, the required audio files already exist – nothing needs to be pitch shifted.
You're making a mistake in thinking that audio files would need to be changed in order to have the displayed key be different from the actual sounding audio key.
All that needs to be changed are the pixels on the computer screen creating the chord name graphics.
That's what <Concert Pitch Adjust> should be doing – it does not have to change any audio files by even a microtone, (let alone a minor third or maximum a tritone).
I thought I made it quite clear in my previous post that when I type in C7 (for example), with Concert Pitch Adjust set to either +3 or -9, BIAB should load the appropriate audio files for Eb7 – which as you yourself noted, already exist – absolutely NO need for any extraordinary pitch shifting at all.
Take any RealTracks style, create a song in the key of C and play it back.
Then select transpose by any of the several methods.
Listen to the new key – no problem at all. All the required audio files are loaded appropriately and play back as expected.
Please understand that the issue is how BIAB draws chord names on the screen when in Concert Pitch Adjust mode.
(And, of course, how BIAB interprets your chord name input. Either way you look at it, it's a screen pixel issue – NOT audio.)
This is most definitely a serious but fixable UI bug that has nothing to do with pitch shifting audio files.
Perhaps one of the pgmusic developers could respond.
(All my posts are regarding the Macintosh version)
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Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 335
Journeyman
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I don't get why you just don't do everything with the Visual Transpose on? So if you are playing an Eb instrument, you can type all the chords and stuff in as you see it for an Eb instrument, but the program will still play everything in the proper keys.
Seems like maybe the Concert Pitch Adjust thing has been obsoleted by the visual transpose (button in the main screen next to SongForm).
Musician, Polymath, Google Jedi, Apple Master, Windows Wrangler and Digital Wizard. High ratings in Nerd-fu & Geek-fu.
M1 Mac Mini, MacBook Pro Touchbar 15", Intel 27" iMac, M1 Mac Mini
https://musician.social/@ericdano
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Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 335
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 335 |
It's the text displayed on screen that needs to change.
i.e. I tell BIAB concert pitch adjust -9 or +3 (same change: down a M6 or up m3 - just a different octave), and the UI tells the audio rendering engine that I really asked for Eb7 instead of the C7 that I see on screen.
This is a major bug for those of us using BIAB for practicing or teaching of transposing instruments.
I can't require (or even recommend) those students to to buy BIAB as it stands now. Again, use the Visual Transpose. I don't think the Concert Pitch Adjust thing is something that anyone uses anymore. It think it is left over from BEFORE they put in the Concert Pitch Adjust, and probably should be removed as it doesn't really have a use anymore.
Musician, Polymath, Google Jedi, Apple Master, Windows Wrangler and Digital Wizard. High ratings in Nerd-fu & Geek-fu.
M1 Mac Mini, MacBook Pro Touchbar 15", Intel 27" iMac, M1 Mac Mini
https://musician.social/@ericdano
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Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8
Newbie
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OP
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Thanks Eric,
I never knew about that option as I've never explored the Lead Sheet window.
What version are you using? I could only find it by navigating to the Lead Sheet window, then clicking on the Opt. button, then click on Notation Options button, then clicking on the Transpose drop down menu. (It's still not titled "Visual Transpose" though.)
I moused over the 50+ buttons on the main screen to see the tool tip explanations but could find no mention of either "Visual Transpose" or "SongForm."
I'm using 2012.5 build 65 for Mac OS.
Are you on 2013 or Windows version?
This feature would do the trick (haven't tested playback yet) but 4 levels deep through a menu/window hierarchy is a pain. I have students on concert pitch, Eb and Bb so setting it and forgetting it is not an option. I need to be able to quickly change frequently.
If it requires version 2013 to get direct "Visual Transpose" in one click I may just jump ship and use iReal Pro for this type of practice file.
(All my posts are regarding the Macintosh version)
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Band-in-a-Box for Macintosh
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 335
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 335 |
Musician, Polymath, Google Jedi, Apple Master, Windows Wrangler and Digital Wizard. High ratings in Nerd-fu & Geek-fu.
M1 Mac Mini, MacBook Pro Touchbar 15", Intel 27" iMac, M1 Mac Mini
https://musician.social/@ericdano
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