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Like many of you, I have hundreds of midi files. I do extensive editing using the Event List of the midi notes, controller data, etc on these. Since I've updated to RealBand 2014, I am seeing the insertion of undefined midi Controller 87 in all of my midi files. The value of this inserted controller has the exact same level as Controller 7 (volume) and seems to parallel as many instances that Controller 7 has on that track.
I've looked in the manuals and it says that Controller 87 is used in some Bluegrass tracks for the "spotlight" mode. It also says that "special controllers" can be turned off in the "Midi Out" section of "Preferences". Regardless of whether I check it on or off, Controller 87 is showing up in the Event Lists and it is effecting the volume of the midi tracks.
Is anyone else seeing this in your Event List?
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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RealBand
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Hi Jeff,
Yes, I noticed this right away with RB 2014.
I also use the Event list for a lot of editing, primarily commands for the TC Helicon VoiceLive 2 (VL2). With RB 2013, I had to insert a command at the beginning of every song event list to reset the output volume level of the VL2 to 0 db. I did this, as you pointed out, with a command 7, level 127. For some reason I don't understand, every song that RB opened got a command to reset the VL2 to -20 db, so my command 7 insertion reset it back to 0 db.
I'm guessing here, but I think PG support learned of this and "fixed" it in another way, command 87. I tested it out by deleting one of my command 7 events and the VL2 output level still opened up correctly, at 0db.
That's my guess and I'm stickin' to it.
Don
Last edited by DonMusic; 12/10/13 11:42 AM.
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Right Don. Same here, I insert a controller 7 set to "0" at the beginning of the track that I send to the VoiceLive Touch. On other tracks, this is how I set my main volume using controller 11 for "expression".
But I've also noticed that since I upgraded to RealBand 2014, that a separate controller 87 is added to each track of the midi file following wherever a controller 7 is in the track. Its value is always the same as the value Controller 7 is set to for that track.
It seems that it has to do with the nodes automation mode for volume. This is especially evident at the end of a song where Controller 7 is used for a fade (rather than the controller 11). In each instance of the fade, Controller 7 is followed by Controller 87 at the same value. Seems to be just a duplication...but why?
If I manually delete each instance of Controller 87 in each part of the track, the node associated with it is also deleted. But more than that, there seems to be some other effect that this undefined controller is having on some tracks. I have some where the upper level patch is being changed. If I delete controller 87, all patch assignments are back to normal. Strange because I don't see any references to controller 87 in either of my romplers.
I would like to find a way to stop the program from adding this controller rather than having to go back through each track of each file to delete each instance. On the other hand, I do like the nodes volume level adjustment, so in that case maybe the way to deal with this is to go back to each track of each file and delete controller 7 and keep the graphic representation of controller 87.
Hope some other chime in so we can get to the bottom of this.
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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RealBand
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Hi Jeff,
It looks like this one should be brought to the attention of PG tech. support.
FYI: Just for a test, I tried deleting the "87" controller from a song, saving, then reopening and found that the "87" is automatically restored every time. It must be deliberate, because it wasn't in RB 2013. In my case, I'll continue using a controller 7, level 127 at the very beginning of my lyric track. There are other "work-around commands" I found necessary to insert, but that's a long story.
Don
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OK Don, submitted to Support. Thanks for your insight and comments.
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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I think that the CC87 Code is associated with the Node graphic changes in some way, but I don't remember the effect on the Event Listing for Midi tracks. The Node changes for Audio tracks enters CC7 in the Event List for all changes.
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Interesting, Lyn
A lot of CC's can be assigned/interpreted in different ways by different programs and synths. 87 does seem like an odd one, maybe it is intended for RB use only.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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By definition, MIDI controllers 85-90 are undefined. So it looks like maybe PGMusic has used 87 for their programmatic purposes (as many other companies do, as well). 102 through 120 are also listed as undefined.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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RealBand
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PG Music Staff
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Hello,
Mountainside, LynB and Jford are correct these controllers are specifically tied to node automation.
If possible I would like to see a midi file that any of you have worked on that exhibits this. I opened a few of my own but did not notice an over-abundance of CC 87. Clearly there is, so I was hoping to get a file representing this just to make sure its not interfering in any noticeable way with the way the file plays.
Thanks!
Support@pgmusic.com
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Rob, files sent. Thanks for the excellent support!
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Rob, sent you another file today where CC87 not only changes the volume but also effects the sound of the patch. Eliminating the node at the beginning of the track returns the patch to normal. Strange.
Appreciate you taking a look at this.
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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RealBand
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PG Music Developer
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Controller 87 shouldn't DIRECTLY affect volume during playback. (meaning that if it gets sent out the MIDI port, it shouldn't normally affect the volume of a synth) Controller 87 is used for the nodes. The controller 7s (MIDI volume) that are added by RB in response to node editing is what actually affects volume during playback.
Controller 87 isn't saved to .MID files (only SEQ files) and it is only actually sent via MIDI out if "Disable Special Controllers" in the MIDI Out Settings is set to false.
Disable Special Controllers just means "don't transmit them during playback" So, make sure this is checked if your synth is really being affected by that particular controller.
Last edited by Jeff Yankauer; 12/13/13 10:23 AM.
Jeff Yankauer
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PG Music Developer
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One thing that will be "fixed" in a future build is that, when loading in a .MID file, the program isn't displaying nodes if a track had volume, but we will add that for a future build. Keep in mind that controller 87 isn't getting saved to .MID files, just the controller 7.
Jeff Yankauer
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RealBand
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You may need to reboot RealBand after checking the Disable Special Controllers checkbox if it wasn't already set to disabled when the program first started. Once that is done, then RB should not be sending out the controller 87s during playback.
Jeff Yankauer
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Rob, at PG Music, has confirmed that there is some strange behavior here. He has reported this to the RB development team.
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Mountainside,
If you can explain further, this is a chance to let 'development' know any more details from your point of view. The person that made the three posts proceeding yours is pretty influential in RB development. (grin, nudge nudge wink wink)
If you have any more clues that may help, please post them.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Thanks Rharv, appreciate you chiming in. You have a PM.
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Again, if anyone's synth's patch sounds are being affected by the transmission of Controller 87 (which is used for the nodes), go into the Preferences - MIDI - MIDI Out, and make sure Disable Special Controllers is checked. If it wasn't already checked, then check this box, press OK, and then exit Realband and restart it. That will prevent Controller 87 from getting sent out during playback, and your synth's sounds should no longer be affected by it.
Let me know if that helps. The restart (if Disable Special Controllers checkbox wasn't already checked) is important, since the setting doesn't currently seem to take effect until RB is restarted.
Last edited by Jeff Yankauer; 12/14/13 09:07 AM.
Jeff Yankauer
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Thanks Jeff, appreciate the Master chiming in here to straighten us out on this. Yes, as you indicated, shutting RB down after checking the "disable special controllers" seems to be the key. Upon start-up, all is now OK.
Jeff
Last edited by MountainSide; 12/14/13 04:16 PM.
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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