|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489 |
Anyone interested in further developing lyric writing skills? If so ... - Just over 12 months ago, I set up a web site for some local songwriting friends so that we could work through Andrea Stolpe's great little textbook called ...
- Popular Lyric Writing: 10 Steps to Effective Storytelling
- I'm looking to revisit Andrea's book if anyone would like to join me. It will take around 4 - 6 weeks. If you're interested, send me a private message with a contact email address.
BackgroundAndrea is one of Pat Pattison's very successful students and a lecturer at Berklee College. She took Pat's ideas on Object Writing and developed them to become a productive technique for writing lyrics. She also invented a process that she calls 'toggling' as a means of assembling song lines so that their developmental impact is maximized. For anyone who's done Pat's course on coursera.org, Andrea's work is a real eyeopener. When I am struggling as to where to go with lyrics, I always apply her techniques and ideas fall into place. Using Andrea's approach, 'writer's block' became a thing of the past. The dozen of us who methodically worked our way through Andrea's book found it a great benefit. It turned out that self-paced, peer-group study worked incredibly effectively. Andrea was very supportive of the website and gave her blessing. I'm pretty sure most people will find her approach very new, very insightful and extremely productive. Interested?The book can be found on Amazon as well as The Book Depository. I prefer the latter because of its delivery policy; it's fast and free  link to book at The Book Depository (free delivery worldwide) In case anyone is concerned ... The free web site I created is highly protected from the public and from search engines. It's as private as I know how to make it and only people I manually authorize can enter. I did this to protect everyone's work.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 50
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 50 |
Hi Noel, Would love to participate, however, warming, warning - total newbie to writing lyrics! I guess the upside might be strengthened eye muscles from all the rolling and crossing  I'm interested because of a technique I learned watching Oliver Gannon's wonderful video Band-in-a-Box tutorials...he demonstrated how to take a phrase, and using the cadence of the phrase, develop a melodic motif. Happy Holidays, Mike
Cheers, Mike.
BiaB 2026 UltraPak, Cubase Pro 15, Ableton Live 12, NI Komplete 15 Ultimate.
Yamaha P515, Yamaha Montage M, Yamaha Tyros 5, Komplete Kontrol S49 MKII, Maschine MKII, Electric Guitars/Bass/Violin
Windows 11 Pro, i7, 64GB RAM, 6TB SSD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,806
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,806 |
Motley... you should be getting a few books on writing to help get you into writing better stuff. The more you seek out the best writers and their advice, the better writer you will become.
The goal is to try to write with others better than you... "writing up" as it's called.
Books, collaborations, seminars, courses, they are all useful. But most importantly, write, write, write.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 50
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 50 |
Guitarhacker, totally great advice...
I'm at "Kickoff" phase - kicking off learning about lyrics through the book with Noel while, at the same time, learning Band-in-a-Box Pop styles and creating songs driven by the lyrics. Also, look to take Pat Pattison's class.
Sounds like you write / written lyrics?
Any thoughts on books re lyrics? In your mind, how does genre impact how to think about lyrics, if at all?
Last edited by MotleyFool; 12/24/13 03:52 PM.
Cheers, Mike.
BiaB 2026 UltraPak, Cubase Pro 15, Ableton Live 12, NI Komplete 15 Ultimate.
Yamaha P515, Yamaha Montage M, Yamaha Tyros 5, Komplete Kontrol S49 MKII, Maschine MKII, Electric Guitars/Bass/Violin
Windows 11 Pro, i7, 64GB RAM, 6TB SSD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489 |
Hi Mike, Would love to participate, however, warning, warning - total newbie to writing lyrics! Andrea Stolpe's approach is perfect for the person who knows absolutely nothing about lyrics. It develops some excellent lyric-writing principles that will stand you in great stead. With the forums I've created, I've set them up so that we will all be working through Andrea's book. The stuff is self-paced. My experience is that working with others really helps to boost creativity enormously. If you're interested, below are links to a couple of pdfs I've created that help give a bit more of an insight. (Right-click on the link and then 'Save as' to download the files.) PDF #1: An example of the work for Day 1. PDF #2: Reference guide for Stolpe's Principles (page 1) and Rhyme types (page 2). I think you'll enjoy the 6 weeks! All the best, Noel P.S. The pdf files might not seem to be too meaningful right at this moment. Once we get going with Andrea's book, though, they'll make sense
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,806
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,806 |
Guitarhacker, totally great advice...
Sounds like you write / written lyrics?
Any thoughts on books re lyrics? In your mind, how does genre impact how to think about lyrics, if at all? Motley, yes I do write.... been working on that since I was a kid... really just started to get serious about being a better writer in the last 15 years or so. It's a learned skill for most people. The more you write, and study writing, the better you will get. Books: I don't have very many. Certainly not like some folks do. I like Jason Blume's books (6 steps) and just picked up Pat Pattison's Writing better lyrics, I also have Robin Frederick's Shortcuts which is not exactly totally about lyric writing. Joining a group of other songwriters such as TAXI or Nashville Songwriters Assn.... or a local writers group is a great way to get lots of good information. If you are near a big city there's almost a 100% chance there is a writers group there. Genre probably does affect lyric writing in a huge way. As a country writer, I would really really struggle to write the lyrics to hip hop or rap, for example, and vice versa. Click on my web site link and navigate to My Music and have a listen to some of the things I write. I have really started working with co-writers in the past 6 to 8 years and that has made a huge difference in my writing, both as a collaborator and as a solo writer.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 50
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 50 |
Hi Mike,
Andrea Stolpe's approach is perfect for the person who knows absolutely nothing about lyrics. It develops some excellent lyric-writing principles that will stand you in great stead.
With the forums I've created, I've set them up so that we will all be working through Andrea's book. The stuff is self-paced. My experience is that working with others really helps to boost creativity enormously. Neil, sounds like a great way to kickoff; thanks so much for opening up an opportunity to explore writing lyrics. Look forward to participating in January! Thanks again, Mike
Cheers, Mike.
BiaB 2026 UltraPak, Cubase Pro 15, Ableton Live 12, NI Komplete 15 Ultimate.
Yamaha P515, Yamaha Montage M, Yamaha Tyros 5, Komplete Kontrol S49 MKII, Maschine MKII, Electric Guitars/Bass/Violin
Windows 11 Pro, i7, 64GB RAM, 6TB SSD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 50
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 50 |
Appreciate the comeback, GH,... I like Jason Blume's books (6 steps) and just picked up Pat Pattison's Writing better lyrics... Thanks! Those two books are on a couple of "Top 10" songwriting book lists. After a bit a research, here are the 5 books I'm getting... - Popular Lyric Writing: Effective Storytelling by Andrea Stolpe - Writing-Better-Lyrics by Pat Pattison - 6 Steps To Songwriting Success: Comprehensive Guide To Writing And Marketing Hit Songs by Jason Blume - Tunesmith: Inside the Art of Songwriting by Jimmy Webb - Melody in Songwriting: Tools and Techniques for Writing Hit Songs (Berklee Guide) by Jack Perricone Joining ... a local writers group is a great way to get lots of good information. If you are near a big city there's almost a 100% chance there is a writers group there. Found a very active group in Seattle - Songwriters in Seattle - will check it out as soon as I've got a feel of where I want to go... Genre probably does affect lyric writing in a huge way. As a country writer, I would really really struggle to write the lyrics to hip hop or rap, for example, and vice versa. Feels right; I'm starting out by studying and building a few BB styles and songs based on tunes by J.J. Cale; then artists like Mark Knopfler, Bonnie Raitt, John Mayer, Ry Cooder, John Mellencamp... Click on my web site link and navigate to My Music and have a listen to some of the things I write. Will do - thanks for your time, Guitarhacker - raising a single malt to your healthy and productive New Year...
Cheers, Mike.
BiaB 2026 UltraPak, Cubase Pro 15, Ableton Live 12, NI Komplete 15 Ultimate.
Yamaha P515, Yamaha Montage M, Yamaha Tyros 5, Komplete Kontrol S49 MKII, Maschine MKII, Electric Guitars/Bass/Violin
Windows 11 Pro, i7, 64GB RAM, 6TB SSD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,079
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,079 |
Noel,
I read those pdf's as I was wondering what was involved in your songwriting forum and suddenly it all became clear to me!
In my last 2 years in school, before university, I was in a "use of English language" course where the teacher dissected poems by the great poets, Keats, Shelley etc etc and I "learnt" about iambic, the only one I remember, pentameters etc etc.
I must have paid more attention than I thought. LOL
Alyn
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489 |
Hey Alyn, I promise you that it won't be too much like your poetry class Andrea's way of looking at lyric construction is unique. I've never come across anything similar in the couple of dozen books I have on songwriting. Those E and I on one of the pdfs refers to Andrea's invention of categorising phrases into External and Internal. External stuff is that which happens outside the character; it can be seen as if it was on a stage. It is tangible. For example: running along the beach, waves splashing against polished black rocks, a seagull crying high in the sky. These are all external things and they are "scene setters". Internal phrases, on the other hand, add meaning to the external details. Things like: my head throbbed from running so hard, I ached with feelings of loss, a picture of dad swam in my mind - these are internal. Now ... the key is to arrange these in a show and tell progression. "E" shows and "I" tells. Let's try .... E E E I (as a possible idea for a four line section) Waves splashing against the rocks
A lonely seagull crying high in the sky
I ran across the sand
My head was throbbing from running so hard
Now that's kind of interesting to me. It immediately makes me wonder what it will sound like it I throw in some rhyme. I'm going to trying rhyming the second line with the last line. The word "die" just popped into my head as a rhyme for "sky". This might give me something like ...
Waves splashing against the rocks
A lonely seagull crying high in the sky
I ran across the sand
My head was throbbing, I wanted to die
Hmmm... now ideas are starting to come along thick and fast. I'm pretty sure that I could make this into a broken heart kind of song!
Why not come along an be a part of the group. At worst, you'll gain nothing! At best ... well it might give you an extra idea or two. All the best, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,079
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,079 |
Noel, Thanks for the offer but I politely say no thanks. I have enough trouble with the 4 A4 boxes each almost full of lyrics. Some unfinished and some ready to record as songs. Most are little vignettes of my life and so the lyrics/words and tunes will stay unique, personal to me  as my posts recently have shown. I write my songs to escape from life but my life is in the songs. One lingering memory of the class was I forgot to find a favourite poem to recite so I instead said a poem my Dad told me when I was very young. It cost me a week of detentions!! Teddy Bear sat on a chair, with ham and jam and plum and pear, this is queer, said Teddy Bear the more I eat the less is there. The laughter was as intense as my blushes  Keep up the good work Alyn
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489 |
Hi Alyn,
A week of detentions!? Some teachers just don't have a sense of humour.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,079
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 3,079 |
Noel, Well I was in a Private school then called a Public School in England, in the late 1960's,where there was an odd rivalry between Arts and Science. I was classed as science reading Chem, Physics and Biology. Anyway Alyn
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,489 |
Dear all,
Thank you to those who expressed an interest in being part of this peer workgroup. Hopefully you should have received an email by now.
I just wanted to let you know that we're up and running and rearing to go! I'm looking forward to working beside you.
Best regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® users: Build 904 now available!
If you're already using Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, make sure to grab the latest update! Build 904 is now available for download and includes the newest additions and enhancements from our team.
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® users: Build 1237 is now available!
Already a Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows user? Stay up to date and download the build 1237 to get all the latest additions and enhancements.
PowerTracks Pro 2026 for Windows is Here!
PowerTracks 2026 is here—bringing powerful new enhancements designed to make your production workflow faster, smoother, and more intuitive than ever.
The enhanced Mixer now shows Track Type and Instrument icons for instant track recognition, while a new grid option simplifies editing views. Non-floating windows adopt a modern title bar style, replacing the legacy blue bar.
The Master Volume is now applied at the end of the audio chain for consistent levels and full-signal master effects.
Tablature now includes a “Save bends when saving XML” option for improved compatibility with PG Music tools. Plus, you can instantly match all track heights with a simple Ctrl-release after resizing, and Add2 chords from MGU/SGU files are now fully supported... and more!
Get started today—first-time packages start at just $49.
Already using PowerTracks Pro Audio? Upgrade for as little as $29 and enjoy the latest improvements!
Order now!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows Special Offers End Tomorrow (January 15th, 2026) at 11:59 PM PST!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PST on Thursday, January 15, 2026!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Windows to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!
Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.
If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!
Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!
We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
Happy New Year!
Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.
Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!
Season's Greetings!
Wishing everyone a happy, healthy holiday season—thanks for being part of our community!
The office will be closed for Christmas Day, but we will be back on Boxing Day (Dec 26th) at 6:00am PST.
Team PG
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics86,063
Posts799,662
Members40,025
| |
Most Online44,367
Mar 4th, 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean