PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic What is the cheapest low-latency Guitar-Midi or Guitar-Audio I can use for my soft-synths ?

Hi all,

I'm' looking for the cheapest Guitar to PC interface with acceptable low latency I can use with my soft-synths. If I use the JamOrigins software, my understanding is that I need to use a guitar audio interface. The other alternative is to use a guitar-Midi converter - of which I've found 2 at pretty low prices:

http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-UCG102-Guitar-to-USB-Interface/dp/B000PAPO9W

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Promotions-Guita...=item5af4e6cf4a

Anybody researched and tried some of these products, or have some suggestions ?

Thanks in advance,
Joe

Joe check very carefully on these. I did a search and found and it showed the Behringer model has no MIDI I/O, thus it is not an audio to MIDI converter. I could not find any information on the Promotions unit but I suspect it to be the same.

Google/Bing audio to midi converter software and you will find a number of them. Some are free so you can try them if you want. Be sure to check if they are mono or polyphonic. I have tried a couple of free ones and they worked somewhat, I had to do a lot of MIDI editing, but that was quite a while ago.

The absolute best polyphonic audio to MIDI converter I have found is in Melodyne Editor, however it is quite expensive. I have done a number guitar and bass audio to MIDI conversions with no editing what so ever. I have found that this software does a better job than my old Casio strat MIDI guitar!

The other options are either a MIDI guitar controller or a guitar with a MIDI controller built in. Fishman http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriplePlayPU/
has what is supposed to be a good MIDI guitar controller but again it is quite expensive.

I hope this helps.

Joe i think you are to some degree not understanding soft synths. (if i am wrong i apologize) Both devices you listed are simple audio I/O interfaces, that will allow you to plug a guitar into a computer and record it. Softsynth respond to midi data, and not audio wave files. As Mario mentioned a Midi guitar will trigger softsynth, but not a typical guitar.

If you want to record your guitar, or play it thru the computers sound system those are fine, but if you want to trigger midi and fire the samples in a softsynth you have to look elsewhere.

Joe, the scuttlebutt out these days is all about this software solution, which one just plugs their guitar with pickup on it into the Audio input of the soundcard.

http://jamorigin.com/products/midi-guitar/

I have not found the time to get some firsthand experience with this yet, but its on my long list of things to get done.

Reports from the field have been pretty good, though.

--Mac

i'm experimenting with you rock guitar

https://www.youtube.com/user/YouRockGuitar/videos

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=yourock+guitar+gen2&sm=1

sadly my playing skills need a lot of work but i'm happy with it so far

Thanks for all of your comments. Of course I'm looking for the 'best acceptable performance at the lowest price'.

Since I want to play my softsynths on my laptop, per the JamOrigins documentation, you need a low latency (e.g. ASIO) AUDIO interface to your laptop - internal soundcards will NOT work (per JamOrigins website, if you are using a mini-plug, you are on the wrong path).

So that leaves
1.) if I use JamOrigins, I must buy a low-latency external laptop audio interface that uses ASIO

2.) if I do NOT use JamOrigins, I can use a Guitar-MIDI device - I currently have a GI-20, but I'd prefer something cheaper, smaller, and easier to transport.

Thanks for introducing me to some new products I didn't think of using Mario - I will check them out.

I'd bet Jamorigins would work with laptop internal soundcard, ASIO4ALL wrapper - and a bit of electronics knowledge on how to connect the type of guitar pickup used to the Mic jack on the laptop properly.

Think, "Resistive Pad" likely an L or Y pad, to reduce the AC voltage from the guitar pickup down to Mic input level. Heck, one 25 to ~150K Pot, wired as voltage divider, with guitar pickup across outside legs and wiper going to mic hot would likely do the trick.


--Mac

Joe, into the mix with "small" and "cheap" you need to throw "accurate" and perhaps "rugged." I think the Roland GI-20, which is designed for the purpose, is your best bet. Besides, you can't get any cheaper than "I already have it!"

Happy New Year!

Richard

may be useful

searches google for links in forums that mention jamorigins

https://www.google.com/search?q=inurl%3Aforum&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS565US565&oq=inurl%3Aforum&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.38546j0j4&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#es_sm=93&espv=210&q=inurl%3Aforum+JamOrigins&tbs=qdr:y


highlight the link and open in a new tab

midiguitar used with biab @ 10min

+1 melodyne editor

Sonuus gm2, guitar to midi converter, cheap, works pretty well, monophonic only...Bobby


http://www.sonuus.com/products_g2m.html

I have a few guitars equipped with GK's, they all go though my GR-50. The GR-50 I now use only as a MIDI I/O device. If the GR-50 were to break I'd look for a GI or another GR MIDI I/O replacement. The GR-50 was my very first synth, of any kind, but now 25 years later its sounds really show their age (same as Roland D-110). I do have fun with the GR sounds sometimes but it is unlikley any internal sounds will show up in any music work.

Sorry I get side tracked easily.

I went ahead and pulled trigger today on this Jam Origins MIDI Guitar. I've been playing with it last few weeks and the idea of it really appealed to me and it works fairly well. Tracks well given you can get a good clean audio input. I use a M-audio FW 410 right now.

Truth in advertising: best I can do is 2.7 ms delay. That is, the best I can get with this SW, my PC, the FW 410 and it's ASIO drivers or even ASIO4ALL is 2.7 milliseconds. Disregarding the delay, once the sound gets TO the SW - it tracks as well as my GK/GR set up. And this thing has individual string (and note) sensitivity setups just like setting up a GK on a "by string basis."

All in all, I think it is worth the $99.95 I paid, especially given they are still working on it and updates look to be free. In MY set-up it works really well and my PRIMARY use is to get notes and chords into the PC (I can't play keys to save my life) without having to fire up my rack and I can use any guitar in hand (haven't tried mic'ing an acoustic yet). Also looking forward to trying real time "lead along" to BIAB/RB/PT/SONAR work - TBD with that delay what outcomes/frustrations will be on that front.

But with all such things YOUR MILAGE MAY VERY! I thought that disclaimer needed spelled out - not abbreviated. Now the standard caveat, I have no financial, personal, or professional connections to this company other than as a new customer.

Larry

I run my GK pup thru the original GR-20.

Same deal.


--Msc

Just out of curiosity - does a 2.7 ms delay make it very difficult to keep up with a drummer during a lively song ? I've found the delay with my GK-20 makes it very hard to say, allow me to play bass in real-time with an up-tempo song. Everything I play is behind the beat, and I find it too difficult to compensate for that. Then again, I haven't really put enormous energy into trying to minimize that delay yet.

In the context of sensory physiology, a 2.7 msec delay is not even noticeable as a delay. It is an order of magnitude too small, except under special circumstances such as rhythmic synchronicity, measured under laboratory conditions. Nothing to worry about in the context of playing along with accompaniment.

I know that's what "studies" say but trust me - as a musician I DO notice it.

I know when I pluck a string (the tactile sensation) and when I hear sound (auditory) they should be in unison and they are not, and I am conscious of it: it IS noticeable. And on critical stuff - I would use pure MIDI HW to get work done. This is not Jam Origins SW fault - it's my AUDIO path into the SW fault.

It will drive you nuts over time (no pun intended).

However, when I play keys I don't notice it but I am not a key player so my reflex between key strike and sound is not as "attuned" (accidental pun)- a good pianist/keyboardist who is use to instantaneous response would probably also notice it and I suspect a horn player in particular using a controller would also notice it.


Larry

I trust you, but possibly your measurement of latency is incorrect. Are you measuring the latency from plucking the string to when the MIDI sound appears? It's not easy to make this measurement accurately without the right equipment.

The delay with MIDI guitars is generally caused by the detection mechanism/methodology. All MIDI/Synth guitar systems have latency issues, because it takes a certain amount of time for the system to analyze the pitch of the vibrating string and therefore the problem tends to be worse with the lower notes (lower cycle duration).

Keyboard driven synth don't have this vibrating string detection problem and therefore no one (including you) complains about delays.

Physics.



Now let's round things off in order to make it easy to investigate the situation.

Let's work with an easy, centralized figure of sound traveling at about 100 Feet in 100 milliSeconds. Good "rule of thumb" for fast calcs in the head on this subject, BTW.

At 2.5mS actual audio latency, the "delay" involved would be the equivalent of playing live with others who were -- 2.5 Feet away from you.

A 25mS latency would then be the equivalent of playing along with someone who was 25 feet away from you.

Also, the reported mS Latency figure in the computer can vary as much as 100% - simply because some softwares report a "one way" figure as to latency in mS, others report a "round trip" figure, or the amount of time it takes for the signal to go into the computer, get processed, and come back out at an audio output for monitoring purposes. Still, when the latency is below around the 25mS mark, not very many can really notice the difference when faced with a true double blindfold test on the subject. To date this engineer has found not one musician who could pass that test, regardless of musical prowess or what they THOUGHT they could detect.

Bottom line, a true 2.5mS, or even 6mS audio latency is indeed not detectable by human beings when the subject is sound waves.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/print/whats_the_delay_the_effects_of_weather_conditions_on_sound

Today's modern sound reinforcement engineers can work wonders using software-defined time alignment, based on the same physics.

The most recent outdoor Country Music Festival event, the sound engineering actually made history with such a purpose-designed and tuned system. Zero Latency anywhere in the live venue, onstage or anywhere in the audience.

Unbelievable large venue live sound situation. Curt Jenkins led the sound engineering. Wow.

Listen to it, that is Live realtime audio feed, man.

The performers enjoyed near-studio audio intimacy at the same time. Multiple acts, rapid-fire, too.

The audience is able to SING ALONG, in a large stadium venue, in realtime with the band when they are called upon to do so. (!)




How it was done:

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/cma_music_festival_rocks_music_city_with_l-acoustics_k1/

Today, we KNOW what the true parameters of human perception of audio latency is, the modern sound engineer must also tune the system for the realtime Barometric Air Pressure and Ambient Temperature - and they can, and they do.

This ain't Woodstock with the Altec Lansing power amps that used tail light bulbs as emitter resistor "compression". Not hardly.


--Mac

Yep must have been being so close to CO and breathing in the fumes from there. I know better than that, I will now remove foot from mouth - no excuse simply spaced out yesterday.

I was reporting information SEEN, not verified, or even THOUGHT about (duh!) - I could've killed (literally) people in my last job with that kind of sloppiness.

Bottom-line: The MIDI Guitar SW by Jam Origins DOES have a PERCEPTIBLY LONGER delay then the GK/GR-50 (how much is TBD - see below for GR measured numbers) - because what I hear on PC with that Jam Origins SW triggering a VSTi is LONGER than I do with GR-50 doing it's thing. In my case, that delay, while it would be off-putting if I had to live with it forever on all critical work, was NOT a deal breaker for me.

Disregarding the small but perceptible delay, with a clean audio signal, the SW does track well (but that is like the difference between precision and accuracy - they are not the same thing). The delay is noticeable - but not deal killing (for me). It is in the "neighborhood" (Topology or Real Analysis anyone?) of "less than a 'slap back' delay", which I usually set at around 90-110 ms, but more than GR-50 (see below - for me that is a worst case of ~43 ms).

============

Now my numbers:

1: 2.7 MS is best I can run and record audio reliably with no glitches as long as simple (stereo) Input and not a complex project but I usually run at 5.8 MS (i.e., 256 samples @ 44.1- I could trim that a little by going to 48Khz or 96Khz but I don't) gives me a "buffer" against issues - in a long recording (I don’t go back and auto tune, or fix stuff on a by note or phrase basis, etc. it is what it is as recorded)

2: Using a GK equipped guitar - analog path into rack Lexicon Signature 284 to mixer, out mixer to PC in right channel. Simultaneously the hexaphonic pickup into the GR-50, to one of two sound sources:

a. Trigger its internal sounds which then leave as analog to same mixer as guitar audio but all on left channel - recorded in Audacity (so synth is right - guitar is left). With this I get an average of low E-string rise of sample to triggered synth sound rise of sample of ~ 42 ms and on high E-string ~13ms (as expected - shorter time).

b. Same set-up but instead of recording GR-50 tone, I let GR-50 do its pitch-to-midi, then out to midi patch bay to XV-5080 and it was then the XV-5080 analog signal out recoded in left channel (guitar still in right as with GR-50). Now you THINK it would take LONGER (convert to MIDI then route same to a patch bay, plus the two cable delays, then to XV where a sound is finally triggered) BUT on Low E it was averaging around ~34 ms and on high E is ~25 ms.

I will chalk these enigmatic time delta's up to "quickie back of envelope" type experiment and not using identical tones (near identical rise times needed) - I should have used a pure sine wave, or at least IDENTICAL patches, on both synths - but "close enough" and gives idea of times for my non-PC, non-ASIO, non-Jam Origins SW - MIDI generation.

So CLEARLY the GK/GR-50 combination has a small, and yes it is perceptible delay (you can feel it and hear it and NOW it is consistent with the numbers Mac has above), but even at that it is, and has been, more than adequate and sufficiently so for me to call it, for all intents and purposes, "real-time" for last 25 years.

I need to run same experiment on PC with this Jam Origins MIDI Guitar SW. I was seeing 2.7ms on the SW screen and thought "well that’s the delay I'm HEARING" - my bad and I KNOW (knew) better but spaced out.

Larry

When attempting to use jamorigins MIDI conversion software along with any kind of software wynthesizer, you and your pc must overcome TWO rather differently programmed - and typically cpu/resource taxing softwares.

That's got to take more time.

Perhaps jamorigins for the MIDI conversion, firing a hardware MIDI synth for the purpose of recording the MIDI guitar, taking advantage of the hardware synth's near-zero latency and the fact that it does not use cpu cycles, etc. would be appropriate.

After the Recording to MIDI is done, one could than apply Software MIDI synth/sampler at playback to achieve desired lush sounds.

Even with my good old GK pup/GR-20 setup, I know that I can't expect to simply play the guitar and get the kind of response one would "normally" achieve when just playing the guitar "like a guitar should be played" so I don't go there. Hammer-ons, Pulloffs, Slurs, that kind of playing doesn't lend itself to getting tracked very well with a lot of MIDI guitar solutions IME. Well, I recall one Yamaha made setup that was pretty awesome along those lines, trouble was that it would have cost about two thousand dollars to go that route.


--Mac