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How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? #233925 01/09/14 11:33 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 10,827 Winston Salem, NC USA Jim Fogle OP Veteran
OP Jim Fogle Veteran Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 10,827 Winston Salem, NC USA	I'm looking for ideas. I'll get an idea for a song (normally a unique way to cover an existing song but sometimes an original) and will get the song structured just the way I want the song to sound in my mind. I'll have a good idea of the key, tempo style, feel and instruments that meet my needs. At this point I start working with 2013 BIAB and begin to loose my vision of the song. My starting style selection will normally be something "close" to what I want. Most of the time only one instrument will play somthing similiar to what I have in mind so everthing else gets muted and I listen to the unmuted instrument while entering chords for the first verse. The vision starts to shift because of the influence of the "close" style. Next comes instrument track selection. I may use mixer setting to swap instruments or try other styles to find one that is closer to meeting my need. The more instrument tracks or styles I try the more it seems I loose my vision for the song. By now, it's gone and I quit working on it, frustrated. I've got four or five songs sitting in folders that I can't advance beyond this stage. I just can't get them to sound like I want. I get offtrack trying to zero in on the right style or selecting instruments that wil play what I want. All advice will be greatly appreciated. Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #233947 01/09/14 12:58 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,987 Texas City, Texas Steve Young Expert
Steve Young Expert Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,987 Texas City, Texas	Hi Jim, In my early days of using BB, I would have some of the same frustrations that you have described. Here is what worked for me (may or may not work for you...) It occurred to me that I was the one that needed to expand my vision of what my song would sound like. For me, RealTracks and RealDrums are the main route. Not to start any more midi wars, but just my personal preference for the basic rhythm section is RT's (sometimes I will use midi drums). Two things I take into consideration... 1.) RealTracks are not going to be completely programmable to play note for note what you want to hear (at least not to date). As you stated, you can usually find at least one instrument that will come pretty close. For me, even if the notes and rhythms are what I "hear", if they don't end up blending well with the overall arrangement, they get replaced by something that does blend properly. So if the RT's are not going to be "exactly" what I want, and that cannot be changed, then I am the one who needs to be open to change. That leads to point #2... 2.) As a result, I consider the arranging process with Band in a Box to be still a part of the songwriting process. When you think about it, if you are working in a band (with real people) and you bring a new composition to the table, it is really rare that your original idea for how the finished song will sound totally comes to pass. Inevitably, a guitar player will come up with a signature lick that makes the chorus, etc. The better the musicians you are working with, the more freedom you will want to give them in this creative process. After all, it's what they do the best. So when I get to the arrangement part of my songwriting, I think of it as if I am auditioning some of the finest studio musicians in the world. I have a basic idea of what I think the song should sound like, but MANY times in the arrangement process, I hear something that captures my attention. Instead of rejecting this every time, I allow myself to go with it. Again, this is what works for me, and I am not saying you must follow this method. But I would recommend that you try it. Don't turn off the creative juices of your songwriting when you start up Band in a Box. Let Band in a Box help to take you to another level of creativity. You've got some of the finest, most creative studio musicians in the world, playing some of their best licks and riffs right there for you. Take them in and make them your own. Hope this helps. Good luck! Steve Ps. Nothing takes the place of becoming familiar with the RealTracks you have. The more you play around with the tracks, the more you will find what suits you. Also, don't be afraid to listen to parts that you might not think would work in your arrangement. I have been pleasantly surprised on many occasions with parts that I did not think would work together. It's a bit overwhelming, but keep chipping away at it. It sure is fun! Last edited by Steve Young; 01/09/14 01:03 PM. Steve Young Music "In order to compose, all you need to do is remember a tune that nobody else has thought of." - Robert Schumann

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #233954 01/09/14 01:32 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida 90 dB Veteran
90 dB Veteran Joined: Apr 2010 Posts: 5,139 Florida	Jim, How did you write your songs before you got BIAB? On your guitar? Piano? Try going back to that. Regards, Bob Dyslectics Untie! https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/ https://soundcloud.com/90-db https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm_3mpivKYV7T7XFJmXL-GA

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #233965 01/09/14 02:28 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,486 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,486 Middlesex, NC	Do you surf? How does a surfer ride the wave? Does he/she, have a planned route? Essentially they want to ride it as best they can..... Nothing in a wave is ever fixed in stone. It's always a fluid, ever moving, ever changing world. So too, I believe, with song writing. When I start writing a song, I have an idea where I want to take it, but that path is constantly changing in the writing process. The key, the tempo, the groove, the style, the lyrics, the melody, the chords..... all in a state of constant motion until nearing the very end of the process. It changes even further as I start to lay tracks for that now completed song in my studio. Once again, nothing is ever fixed in stone. I "go with the flow" and more often than not, the end result is actually better in many ways than I imagined it would be. Very few writers, I believe, know exactly what the song will sound like before it's written..... what we hear in our heads rarely translates exactly to the DAW. As far as the unfinished tunes in the folders.... pull them out and just roll with the flow and see what happens. Needless to say.... every year, I start a new "catch all" folder I call my song tank... I name it Song Tank 2014 or whatever year it represents. All my ideas go into that main folder. Some get finished during the year and some actually get deleted. I normally end up with about 80% of the ideas in there not completed. Don't lose sleep over it, just come up with more ideas and according to the rules of statistics, some percentage of them will get done. Of those, several may actually be much better than what you originally envisioned. Also, the more you work with BB/RB, the better you will become at translating the sounds in your head into sounds coming out of the speakers being similar to what you first imagined. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? 90 dB #234007 01/09/14 05:24 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Originally Posted By: 90 dB Jim, How did you write your songs before you got BIAB? On your guitar? Piano? Try going back to that. Regards, Bob Yes, exactly. Who was it that said that the editing process was not finished until you couldn't strip anything more away? - some famous person. Not to throw out the importance of these autoaccompaniment tools - but for your description, Jim - it sounds like they are somewhat getting in the way. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Guitarhacker #234008 01/09/14 05:29 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker Do you surf? How does a surfer ride the wave? Does he/she, have a planned route? Essentially they want to ride it as best they can..... Nothing in a wave is ever fixed in stone. It's always a fluid, ever moving, ever changing world. So too, I believe, with song writing. When I start writing a song, I have an idea where I want to take it, but that path is constantly changing in the writing process. The key, the tempo, the groove, the style, the lyrics, the melody, the chords..... all in a state of constant motion until nearing the very end of the process. It changes even further as I start to lay tracks for that now completed song in my studio. Once again, nothing is ever fixed in stone. I "go with the flow" and more often than not, the end result is actually better in many ways than I imagined it would be. Very few writers, I believe, know exactly what the song will sound like before it's written..... what we hear in our heads rarely translates exactly to the DAW. As far as the unfinished tunes in the folders.... pull them out and just roll with the flow and see what happens. Needless to say.... every year, I start a new "catch all" folder I call my song tank... I name it Song Tank 2014 or whatever year it represents. All my ideas go into that main folder. Some get finished during the year and some actually get deleted. I normally end up with about 80% of the ideas in there not completed. Don't lose sleep over it, just come up with more ideas and according to the rules of statistics, some percentage of them will get done. Of those, several may actually be much better than what you originally envisioned. Also, the more you work with BB/RB, the better you will become at translating the sounds in your head into sounds coming out of the speakers being similar to what you first imagined. Great analogy with the surfing. Same goes for skiing. My 'song tank' is more of a lyric and melody snippet tank - it's in my iPhone. I will speak lyric snippets in, or hum/sing melodies that I want to develop further. Sometimes I remember that I have that tank and will draw from it, sometimes I don't. Look at it this way, not every song is a hit - even with a very broad definition that a hit is getting something to sound like you hear it in your head. This is the premise of the February Album Writing Month challenge at www.fawm.org Be prolific in your songwriting. Now and then, a gem comes out of the process. The chance of a gem is much higher if you simply make a habit of documenting your efforts, whether that's in a BIAB/RB song-structure, a hummed melody, lyrics scratched down or spoken into a recorder, etc. Don't let the muse slip away - we have all kinds of technology to trap muse sightings. Jim, to break any habit of over thinking a song, please join us at the February Album Writing Month site. If it's not yet live for 2014, it should be before the end of January. www.fawm.org Make sure to go to the .org URL extension. You have been warned! My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234010 01/09/14 05:33 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,793 J JohnJohnJohn Veteran
JohnJohnJohn Veteran J Joined: Jun 2012 Posts: 3,793	Jim, I have experienced the same thing from time to time. Sometimes the problem is that BIAB has very specific sounds and if they do not fit your vision for your song it can feel forced, kinda like someone else is writing your song. Nothing wrong with the advice to go with it and let BIAB determine the feel of your song but also nothing wrong with dropping back to your own instruments until you get the song at least roughly fleshed out just like you want it.

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234108 01/10/14 07:00 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Try composing your song without any instruments involved at all. In your head. Hear it first. Why? Because, all to often, when we use our familiar instrument, we tend to play the same old familiar stuff on it. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234117 01/10/14 07:48 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,564 Florida floyd jane Veteran
floyd jane Veteran Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 12,564 Florida	Jim, Seems like you are getting everything except an answer to your question.. All that stuff is, of course, valid - and useful. But that doesn't mean that you cannot get what you want from BIAB (most of the time, at least). For the most part, I always have in my head what I want a song to be. 75-80% of the time I can make that happen. Of the other 20%, half is a new direction because something in the process sends me down a terrific new path (as expounded in most of the responses) the other half (10% ?) is because I just can't get what I'm looking for. Here are some ideas that might help you get what you are after... Start with just drums and bass. They are your backbone - and if you can get the right feel there, you can build on that. They can come from that "close style" or from building from scratch - find a drum kit (the Nashville Even8 will cover a LOT of territory) and audition every bass until you find the one that works (perfectly) for the song at hand. Don't add anything until you have this right! You should be able to sing along with just the drums and bass, comfortably - thinking "that sounds right!" Once you have that, add ONE rhythm instrument. An acoustic guitar - fingerpicking or strumming. Or a piano (a simple one). Occasionally, an electric rhythm guitar will work. If you cannot find one, play the part yourself (I'm assuming you go to a DAW to mix). At that point, it should still have the backbone (sound) that you envision. Then... record your vocals (and harmonies) - even if they are scratch at this point. Mix that. It should still sound like what you are after - even more so... One place to really "go wrong" is to try to get it ALL worked out before doing the vocals... NOW... go forward - adding in the sweetening. Audition electric guitars to add - add them to your mix one at a time. If they don't fit (perfectly) delete them and move on. A background pedal steel? Audition them. Sometimes you simply won't find the right one. So.. try a fiddle... an accordion... work at the addition of other rhythm instrument before adding any soloing - save that for last ... When you've finished that process, your song should still sound like what you had in mind (and usually better than you imagined!). Then go back and record your final vocal - to a track that sounds the way you wanted it to... Hope that helps a bit... floyd 150+ Songs produced using BIAB RealTracks And 50 more... and some more...

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234130 01/10/14 08:28 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815 Kemmrich Expert
Kemmrich Expert Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,815	Floyd, Nice explanation of a solid process for building songs in BIAB that can fit our vision of what the song should be like. Now at bandcamp: Crows Say Vee-Eh @ bandcamp or soundcloud: Kevin @ soundcloud

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234159 01/10/14 11:15 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,486 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,486 Middlesex, NC	I think the answers or recommendations being submitted here are addressing the issue nicely. Interesting topic. It is a rare individual who has the talent or is surrounded by musicians with the talent to take a song as conceived in one's mind and get it into a recorded medium exactly like it was originally in their head. Not impossible, but not very likely IMHO. I do think the more you write and translate the ideas into the real world the better you become at both. As far as being a prolific writer.... absolutely. I heard Jeff Steele speak about his writing. He had 24 #1 country hits at that time. His goal is to write something new every single day. Assume a 5 day work week writing songs and he gets about 250 songs a year. if 10% are worthy and get recorded, that's 25 cuts, and he said he averaged about 1 in 100 actually getting up the charts to the top as singles. Yes, you need to write a bunch of rocks to find the gems in the lot. Simply write..... don't be looking to intentionally write a #1 song, just write from the heart, follow the twists and turns on the way and things will either work out or they won't.....either way... did you learn something in the process and have fun? If yes... mission accomplished. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234171 01/10/14 12:36 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Well, it depends on certain other factors as well. Fairly easy to get what you wrote on the score when the thing is a bigband or orchestral piece. Then again, using a small combo where things are a bit more free can turn your vision around pretty quick. One of the rules of production, though, is that if something isn't working, better to go with the flow, or try something else, rather than get into that rut of flogging the dead horse thing. Anybody recall those Producer Flashcards? My favorite one was, "Turn out the lights, walk out the door and go do something else." Oh, and, "If you can't fix the mistake, emphasize it!" --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Mac #234175 01/10/14 01:17 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,486 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,486 Middlesex, NC	Originally Posted By: Mac Oh, and, "If you can't fix the mistake, emphasize it!" --Mac ha ha... one of my favorites when gigging live... playing guitar and hit that wanky wrong note.... don't grimace.... simply play it again.... intentionally... I even had one guy tell me "hey that thing you did on that solo was brilliant.."...and I'm standing there thanking him, smiling, thinking... dude,,, if you only knew... You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234179 01/10/14 01:44 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	If your a jazzer and pull that stunt, you;'re supposed to wait until after the song ends and lean over to one of the other members of the band and say, "Didja hear me get outside the changes on my solo?" PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Guitarhacker #234180 01/10/14 01:45 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	There's another way to handle the clam, rather than repeating it, there's an old jazz saying, "Redemption is only a half step away"... PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234189 01/10/14 03:29 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 15,579 GA USA Janice & Bud Veteran
Janice & Bud Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 15,579 GA USA	I think floyd nailed it re RTs. The only thing I'd emphasize is that, at least for me and my musical interests, I often have to cut and paste multiple generations of RTs to get what I want - even rhythm tracks - in order to, well, stay on track. Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Janice & Bud #234253 01/11/14 07:07 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,486 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,486 Middlesex, NC	Originally Posted By: Janice & Bud I think floyd nailed it re RTs. The only thing I'd emphasize is that, at least for me and my musical interests, I often have to cut and paste multiple generations of RTs to get what I want - even rhythm tracks - in order to, well, stay on track. Absolutely.... if I'm putting a song together, everything Floyd mentioned, and what you are saying .... well almost everything, is what I do. I listen to a track, if it works, I keep it, if not, I delete it and try again or move on in a different direction. In my latest song..."world".... I deleted 3 piano tracks and a fiddle track and several others that simply didn't work close enough to my plans. I rendered a 4th piano and it worked well enough to keep it. The fiddle got deleted, and I probably should have deleted the cello too, but I simply pulled the levels low on it and the string section. Working with BB/RB, currently there is no way for you to have it create exactly what you hear in your head, so we are, by default, forced to choose other paths as the writing process continues. "riding the wave" .... Unlike a live player with a piano or a guitar or bagpipes for that matter, we can not force RT to play exactly what we want..... at least, not yet. That is not to say that we can't get a very usable output from RT. I've used this example before, on the song The Best Christmas....I rendered the piano 3 different times, and the lead guitar 5 different times. All 8 tracks for those 2 instruments are in the mix. I used a common bus with EQ and verb, and compression in it, with the individual tracks enveloped as needed to play the fills and the solo. As a result, I was able to get pretty much everything I needed.... perhaps not exactly what I wanted, but what I needed to get the song done to a high level of satisfaction. some thoughts.... You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Guitarhacker #234259 01/11/14 08:05 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,540 Hamlin NY MarioD Veteran
MarioD Veteran Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 23,540 Hamlin NY	Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker Working with BB/RB, currently there is no way for you to have it create exactly what you hear in your head, I will respectfully disagree. You can get BiaB and RB to create exactly what you hear in your head using MIDI. I say this not to start another MIDI/RT war but to put out the point that the main themes you hear in your head can be put down along with RTs playing in the background. Good sounding MIDI sound sources can even sound better with RTs in the background. Some MIDI background tracks like Aahs, strings, pianos etc can sound great behind RT leads like saxes, pedal steel guitar, fiddles etc. The main point that I am trying to make is do not limit yourself to just RTs or MIDI. Both have strengths and weaknesses. They are tools you already have so why not use both? The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly." 64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234290 01/11/14 11:09 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Originally Posted By: JimFogle The more instrument tracks or styles I try the more it seems I loose my vision for the song. Jim, this one statement from your original post is likely at the root of the whole matter. There have been several pieces of advice given about keeping things simple, or going with the flow. Two different approaches, each with their own benefits. You are trying to map out what you hear in your head to what you want the end result to sound like. This will be very difficult with adding in any kind of auto-accompaniment, unless you start from there-that's my opinion. The auto accompaniment has it's character and mindset of the player/programmer and you really have no direct way of communicating your vision to them other than through tempo, style selection, instrument selection - but you can't tell the player - stay off of these notes, do a parallel harmony to my melody that I'm singing, etc. like you can with a live band. Totally o.k., but it will likely frustrate you if you are depending on the backing tracks to sound like your prescribed vision/audible idea of how the thing should sound. The other folks say 'go with the flow' and this is probably going to be the better way to a pleasant result when using auto accompaniment - as you can riff off of the accompaniment ideas to take the song in a new direction, like you do when you sit and write with other folks. One thing to also keep in mind, most pop music in any style these days is not 50 tracks/instruments stacked simultaneously on each other - quite the opposite. Now, they might be using tons of tracks total, but at any one time in the song, the arrangement is pretty sparse. I hear SOME users of BIAB/RB that think that since they put a fiddle track in, they need to let it be audible for the whole danged song, and mandolin, and piano and acoustic guitar and and and. The process of elimination naturally highlights what should really be in focus. Use elimination of tracks for large sections of the song - use a known arrangement/production as a guide. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: How Do You Keep Your Vision For How You Want A Song To Sound Intact? Jim Fogle #234291 01/11/14 11:16 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 10,827 Winston Salem, NC USA Jim Fogle OP Veteran
OP Jim Fogle Veteran Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 10,827 Winston Salem, NC USA	Some great comments; I hope you'll keep presenting ideas. One point that may have been overlooked in my first posting is I create cover songs most of the time though I have created a few originals. For the question I'm asking it may not make a difference to your responses. One question that comes to mind is how much do the style and RealTracks interact? Sometimes I will start with a midi, hybrid or Real style and it seems that the more I swap out instruments the more the sound drifts away from the feel I started with. Even reverting back to the original instruments don't seem to capture the original feel I started with. Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!

It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!

We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!

Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:

Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!

Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!

July 27, 2025

New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!

We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!

Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!

Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.

Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles

Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)

And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.

You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.

Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!

The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!

July 23, 2025

Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!

With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!

These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!

This Free Bonus PAK includes:

The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK: -For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles. -For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles. -For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
Playable RealTracks Set 4
RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.

Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:

20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe

Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!

July 21, 2025

New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!

Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!

In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.

July 21, 2025

New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!

We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!

We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!

If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!

Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.

Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.

July 21, 2025

New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!

Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!

All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!

Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.

Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!

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