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...I used this rig to compete with our B3/Leslie player. Those were the days  Standby one, Houston, I think we've localized the problem... Yep! Also, recall that to get 'distortion' from guitar amps took extra effort, whether it was cranking it to 10 (or 11 if you are Tufnel), or cutting cones of speakers, or whatever - to get the distorted sound originally took some serious volume. And then the B3 player and drummer had to be heard, etc. Why were guitars electrified to begin with? To 'COMPETE' with the rest of the band. I have to admit, I hated playing with a brass section as either a keyboard player, or guitar player or as the sound engineer because their levels were so uncontrolled in our little church. Pain inducing loud with 4 trumpets, 2 bone players, a euphonium player and a couple saxes. Dang, I couldn't get a good mix when they played in the room. For one Easter season, we put them in a back room and stuck a single little AT choir mic in that room and then I had mixing bliss with the rest of the live musicians. But I lost that battle. Maybe a better word here is 'blend' rather than 'compete' though 'compete' has a lot of truth in it!
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Ok now the real dinosaur will rear it' old head . . . distortion! Why in the heck would I want that I want my sound to be as clear as possible.
Later,
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Well now, that's whole different issue isn't it? The last thing kids want to do is play their parents music so they're guaranteed (probably in our DNA) to do whatever is going to anger their parents the most musically. I definitely resemble that idea.
Orchestras and big bands were loud yes but also clean sounding so what do the kids do? Rock and Roll baby!! With the loudest and most obnoxious sounds they can come up with. The last thing the kids want is to have their parents show up at a dance party and actually have fun. They want them to leave asap.
How many of us would go to our kids DJ run rap/EDM party? That stuff is horrible, right? We can't stand to listen to it so we leave them alone.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Eh, not so sure .. me blasting Maynard Ferguson seemed to tick my parents off just as much, even if it was 'Live at Jimmy's'.
Not saying it wasn't rebellious, but distortion wasn't the key in my youth, just loud.
I figure escapism comes into play a bit also. Loud music tends to get your attention and heart beat elevated.
For the record, I got nothing against distortion when done right.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Eh, not so sure .. me blasting Maynard Ferguson seemed to tick my parents off just as much, even if it was 'Live at Jimmy's'.
Not saying it wasn't rebellious, but distortion wasn't the key in my youth, just loud.
I figure escapism comes into play a bit also. Loud music tends to get your attention and heart beat elevated.
For the record, I got nothing against distortion when done right.
We know as long as it is not on your lawn:>! PS: Primal Scream was very appropriately named IMHO, but I did love it. Later,
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Just FYI I suggest I never ask at a live venue "is it too loud" as someone will surely say it is, even if it's perfect.
Such an interesting thread. Thanks Danny. I loved your story about playing at the upmarket retirement venue. I should be a little clearer. I don’t ask over the pa. "Is it too loud?". At the market I generally just quietly ask a vendor who is in my immediate vicinity. Vendors need to be able to chat to their customers so if the music is too loud they are the ones who would be most affected. I find it difficult playing at things like corporate functions where people are also trying to chat at their tables. So sometimes I will catch somebody at the closest table’s eye (usually somebody who appears to be enjoying the music) and quietly ask/mouth “is it too loud” and hope that I pick the right person…not your lady at the retirement home, but you can usually spot those ones as the ones who are constantly grimacing!
Last edited by JosieC; 01/21/14 11:56 PM.
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So far, I've seen opinions and anecdotes, but no one has really answered the question as to why (rock) music has to be played so loud. I hear the arguments that drummers have to play at a certain level.... agreed. I hear the argument that older tube guitar amps sound better pushed... agreed. But that was then.....this is now. With electronic drums and better technology, drums can sound good and be much quieter, especially the E-kits. I know not every drummer likes e-drums or can afford them. Guitar amps, no excuses there. There are nice boutique amps with lower wattage and modeling which allow amazing tone at low and reasonable volume. As for why any music sounds better louder..... the ear is not linear in it's response, but logarithmic. It has to do with the ear's response to frequency as volume changes and how the resonance of the ear canal itself affects what we perceive. This article explains all that better than I can..... LOUD MUSIC SOUNDS BETTER There's a name for this effect (loud sounds better) where we perceive music that is louder to sound better than the same music at a lower volume. I can not recall it's proper name. This plays a huge part in how one should MIX music. Always mix at lower sound pressure levels. 85dbl is the recommended level for mixing.... that tends to be lower than many find ideal. It forces one to mix properly. Only when the mix is finished should it be monitored at a higher level. Mixing louder will tend to bias the EQ into less than desirable curves, resulting in a mix that doesn't translate well across devices. Here's more>>>> More on LOUD
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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...Why were guitars electrified to begin with? To 'COMPETE' with the rest of the band... Actually, the historical reason was so that a guitarist could escape the Rhythm Section Only task of chunkin' out chords in the bigbands and venture into the realm of Soloing. The Charlie Christian story. Then along came Les Paul, who injured his right arm terribly in an automobibile accident and had the doctor set it bent at the elbow such that it was permanently in guitar-strumming position. After healing, though, he found out that he no longer had the swtrength to play loud enough and decided to try amplification. He pounded one of the old 78 rpm phonograph steel needles into the bridge of his archtop, and attached the needle to the tone arm of his record player - and went to work locally with his amplified "electric" guitar, now able to be heard without the ability to pluck strings with strength of the forearm and wrist. So it was originally all about "being heard at all" and the situation where "being heard too much" kind of evolved along the way, actually not coming into its own until a younger generation came along and redefined the role away from the bigband concept and into the "combo" as it was once called to indicate a small ensemble trying to do the job of the older bigbands. --Mac
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So far, I've seen opinions and anecdotes, but no one has really answered the question as to why (rock) music has to be played so loud. Did you read my earlier posts? It's not about the ears.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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WHAT DID HE SAY??????
SPEAK UP, PLEASE!!!!!
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Herb, the name for the effect is the psychoacoustic perception of loudness, which was alluded to earlier in Richard and my responses. The author of the mix article misses out on the cross-modal psychophysical response. He address equal loudness contours only - which is also critical to understanding perceptual differences in sound based on it's level - but it's not the only hearing mechanism. It's not just rock music, either, but rock music was the first that was amplified to stadiums where the long distances between stage and farthest seating represented huge amounts of attenuation through the air. In order to get comfortable listening levels at the farthest seats, the stage-oriented playback had to be ridiculously loud. Now it is somewhat of a social / cultural expectation for all popular music forms to be cranked up, including at restaurants and bars - where it isn't being performed live, but fed over the PA system. There's a whole LinkedIn discussion group on Restaurant Noise that collects information and enters discussion on this topic. The situation is not likely to change soon in any type of venue. So, wear hearing protection that clearly works for you both to obviously reduce volumes, as well as allows clarity of music enjoyment/discernment. Also, for the record, hearing damage risk involves a coupling of the level of the sound as well as the duration of exposure. It is a dosage type of risk criteria, not just level-specific. I recommend using NIOSH's exposure guidelines as the most conservative risk criteria guidelines. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/noise/chart-lookatnoise.htmlNIOSH uses the "85/3" guidelines, where exposure is normalized to an 8 hour day, with 85 dBA exposure for 8 hours in a day being safe. Every 3 dBA increase from there, cuts the safe exposure time in half. Notes brings up a very important distinction about weighting - these guidelines are for A-weighted exposures. C-weighting results in much higher reported values. Also, don't trust any application on your phone to represent either very accurately - the sensitivity to low frequency sound on any phone microphone is intentionally low. For the record, I am on both the American National Standards Institute/Acoustical Society of America and Canadian Standards Association committees for hearing protection standards development. I deal with this topic daily. It's pretty difficult for me not to turn this into a commercial for my company's products. In my opinion, NIOSH is the most non-biased authoritative resource on this topic as they are not tied to the department of labor, as is OSHA. NIOSH's guidelines are more conservative in nature than OSHA. Not everyone can afford to carry around an SPL meter with them, nor is this necessarily convenient! So, what can you do that is reasonable? If you find that you have to use a raised voice for face to face communication - you are likely in a noise environment that could result in noise-induced hearing loss and to reduce your risk, you should be wearing some type of hearing protection. Make it convenient for you to use hearing protection - keep some in your gig bag, in your car, in your backpack or purse, at home in the shop, etc. Make sure you follow the manufacturer's fitting instructions precisely. Far too many people do not use generic fit hearing protectors properly. All of them require deep insertion into the ear canal. -Scott
Last edited by rockstar_not; 01/22/14 12:42 PM.
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