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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: May 2014
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Now that I purchased BIAB/RealBand as tools to help with my band/orchestral music composition and trumpet solo backing tracks, I'm trying to figure out what my best soundcard/interface option is.
I have been doing digital recording of my bands for many years (since the mid-nineties) and have a decent amount of gear. Among that is a M-Audio Fast Track Ultra interface, as well as a Zoom R24. However, these are both digital audio interfaces, so I can't imagine that they'd be helping me on the MIDI side of things-bouncing between my notation software and RB.
Would it make more sense to purchase an inexpensive Sound Blaster to use as my dedicated MIDI card, since it has on board soundfont support, etc.? I have found myself using a SB type card in the past for rough playback, even with expensive multi-channel interfaces.
Again, I'm looking at this from the MIDI side of things, not digital audio. Thanks in advance for your help!
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Hard to answer this until we know more about what types of midi devices and how many devices you are using. Are you using multiple keyboards, controllers, rack mounted synths, effects etc? Do you program Change Controls (cc's) into your tracks? Do you drive one midi device from another? If you do any of these, you might want to consider a midi interface, rather than or in addition to, an audio interface. Audio interfaces tend to have limited midi in/outs and thru's.
Traditionally, many have daisy-chained their midi units. In this type of setup you would be limited to 16 channels. If your units are multi-timbral, they could support up to 16 midi channels each. From my experience, driving multiple rack modules by controllers and DAW tracks works much better with midi interfaces.
For example, I tend to use RB more so than BIAB. In my setup, I run 5-6 midi tracks from the RB to control one multi-timbral synth rack, another 2-3 midi tracks to another multi-timbral synth module, a separate midi track to a vocal processor and record my keyboard midi parts on another track.
Just some food for thought.
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2026, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Most flexible and cost effective, with best sound quality - get a soft synth. Coyote Forte is my recommendation.
Last edited by jazzmandan; 05/12/14 03:34 AM.
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Thanks for the advice, jazzmandan and Jeff! To be more specific about my usage, my only piece of MIDI equipment is a keyboard, and it's not anything that I'm pulling sounds from-just a controller. I plan to use BIAB/RealBand for three things:
1) To develop ideas for "serious" instrumental composition
2) To improve the sound of MIDI outputs from my notation software by using higher quality patches and editing in RB
3) To put together backing tracks for my trumpet playing (mostly jazz/pop stuff, in this case) for recording and live shows
jazzmandan: We're both in Chicago (I'm a freelancer/teacher in town)! Thanks for the info. on Coyote Forte. I checked out your website and you're doing basically what I plan to do on the trumpet side of things. What's your setup? I see that you're using an M-Audio Audiophile 192. Do you recommend it?
Jeff: What are your thoughts based on my needs
As a sidenote, I ordered the basic BIAB/RB 2014. Now I'm wondering if I should go straight for the UltraPlus Pak 2014, or stick with the Pro/basic and see how things go?
Thanks for your help!
Mark
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Buy as much as you can on your first purchase .. cheaper than adding on later. Also, all you may need is a MIDI - USB convertor if it is only a single controller: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=midi+usb+cable
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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jazzmandan: We're both in Chicago (I'm a freelancer/teacher in town)! Thanks for the info. on Coyote Forte. I checked out your website and you're doing basically what I plan to do on the trumpet side of things. What's your setup? I see that you're using an M-Audio Audiophile 192. Do you recommend it?
Mark
Welcome to the forum Mark, I have a couple of good friends who are trumpet players in the Northwest suburb area where I hang. So the Audiophile 192 does everything I needed for my home DAW. It has good drives for Win 7. Only problem is it is almost as old as me (well, not quite) but it is a PCI card of the old standard. When I bought my current DAW PC (Dell XPS I7) it had one of the PCI slots and that was several years ago. Today you would have to be careful that the PC had the right slot. Seems today more and more folks go the external USB route for an interface versus the older PCI cards. But if you have the slot and can pick one up one up at a good price it is a very clean and dependable interface. By the way, here is my good friend Mitch on muted trumpet with me on guitar and BIAB and the Audiophile 192 in action. http://www.jazzmandan.com/audio/Summertime.mp3
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Many keyboards communicate with a computer via a USB port instead of two traditional 5 pin din connectors for midi-in & midi-out. If your keyboard has a USB port visit the manufacturer's website, you may find midi driver available for download or that the keyboard uses drivers already available in your computer's operating system.
If your keyboard has 5 pin midi connectors, midi to usb adaptors are hard to beat. Do a web search and you can find no-names to brand names for between $10 - $50 . The drivers are what makes them special and most of the no-names rely on operating system drivers.
Many people find latency (the time from when a key is depressed to when the sound reaches your ears) is an issue and decide to use a hardware sound source such as the general midi sound module in a keyboard, Keytron SD2, Roland sound canvas, etc. If so then the hardware midi-in port will be connected to the midi out port of your computer.
If you are going to use software synths there are two types multi-timbral software like Forte, Omnisphere by SampleTank and the Roland TTS-1 or VSC or instrument specific. Both have their merits and disadvantages but if cost or cpu resources are important then the multi-timbral products are most likely the better choice.
It is increasingly difficult to find a soundcard that has midi ports or uses Soundfonts. No Creative cards include midi ports. Soundfonts use a standard EMU, Creative or Microsoft no longer support.
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Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
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Joined: Dec 2012
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I have a cheap ($5) midi to USB adapter as well as a USB audio interface. Both work well for midi, but there is considerable latency when using it with a software synth. My usual setup is to use my keyboard (Korg N364) as both the midi controller and sound source when recording midi. With that setup there is no noticeable latency. Once I'm done recording the midi, I switch the sound source to a soft synth for final mixing and editing.
Rich
Windows 10, 64 bit | BIAB 2019 PlusPak | Studio One 2 Artist
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Mark, my thoughts would be this. JazzManDan and Rharv gave some good advice. When starting out...keep it simple, the BIAB and RB software will be challenge enough. Since you don't have a full blown rack synth setup and a single keyboard, going the soft synth (VSTi)route is the most cost effective.
The soft synth that JazzMan mentioned is available through PG Music here on this site and offers sounds that I think you will find applicable for your needs. Latency could be an issue, but we can help you with that.
Perhaps the most important advice came from Rharv. Buy up into the BIAB/RB software packages as high as you can. While you might be initially satisfied with the basic package, I can almost predict that by the second week you'll have wished that you got more. This stuff gets to be pretty addictive and you will not regret spending a little more now. It will save you money in the long run.
You will find that there are many here that have similar interests as yours and that there are many willing to help you. You are not alone on this journey here.
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2026, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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When it comes to picking an interface, the external interface will always be better than the factory sound card that is in the computer.
Especially for recording music like we do. While the factory card works fine for mp3 and video sound, when you work with multitrack audio and especially soft synths, you need a sound card/ interface that can handle the load and get the music to the speakers in sync regardless of the number of tracks and synths. The factory card can rarely do this.
So.... yeah, Get an external interface. Just be sure to check that it has the following:
1. It should connect with USB
2. It should run native ASIO drivers and not use codecs or wrappers.
3. It should have (at least) 2 high impedance inputs for guitars and 2 low impedance inputs for mics.
4. It should have phantom power for condenser mics
5. It's nice to have a software control panel and DSP FX
6. Be sure it has sufficient outputs to get the signals out to where you need them.
I consider the interface to be the heart of the home studio. So, when you choose one, be sure it fits all the requirements you have currently and may need for any planned upgrades to the studio over the next 5 years.
It's better to spend a few dollars more to get the features you may need, than to save a few bux and go cheap and end up with an interface that doesn't have the ability to do what you need.
My advice: Do your research. Determine your needs. Settle on an interface you think fits that need. Talk to other folks with that same interface and see how well they are liking it. Buy from a store that offers a minimum of 30 days no questions asked full refund in case you are not happy with it.
My 2 cents
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Agree totally with what guitarhacker said. Based on that, I'd recommend looking at the Presonus USB Audiobox. It has what Herb recommended and also has a MIDI interface.
Rich
Windows 10, 64 bit | BIAB 2019 PlusPak | Studio One 2 Artist
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Thanks for the advice! I already own a M-Audio Fast Track Ultra interface, which I bought so that I could work on Pro-Tools projects with band mates. I think it ultimately was used to record a single bass track and then shelved to collect dust! However, it does 8 in/8 out and has MIDI (which I didn't know until checking). My original plan was to sell it to subsidize my BIAB/RB purchase. I would get $150-$200 on eBay for it, but maybe I'm best off keeping it for BIAB.
Is anyone else using the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra and BIAB?
Last edited by markmusik; 05/14/14 10:10 PM.
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Mark, I think you've confused a lot of people, and possibly even yourself. You're NOT looking for a MIDI Interface, you're looking for a MIDI Sound Generator. HUGE Difference. By the way, don't get rid of the Fast Track, you'll be able to use that once you get your sound generator! There are two kinds of Sound Generators, hardware and software. Let's discuss each, starting with software. Starting with Band In A Box 2014, it is now possible to assign software synthesizers to each track or part in Band In A Box, AND they can be different synths. In fact, if you were to purchase the Garritan Personal Orchestra, or the Garritan Jazz Band, you would be able to assign different instruments to each instrument part. So, you might assign a wooden Acoustic Bass from the Jazz Band to the Bass Part, and a Steinway piano from the Personal Orchestra to the piano part, and strings from the Personal Orchestra to the strings part, or, maybe a brass section from the Jazz Band, if it's a 'Big Band' swing song. There are hundreds, if not thousands of libraries that can be used with VSTi players, like the Native Instruments Kontact player. Take the same BIAB file, and play it using something like the Coyote Forte DXi synth, and then again, loaded with the Garritan instruments, and it'll be like your trumpet versus a kazoo. The difference will startle you. But, there is a drawback. You pay for quality sounds, and you may pay a lot. For Personal Orchestra 4 and Jazz and Big Band 3, you're looking at $300. Then, you have to load the synths and the patches each time you want to play a song. I love my Garritan products, and I can't wait to play with them with my new version of BIAB, but it's kind of a struggle sometimes to get everything set up. Now, hardware is MUCH easier. Simply plug the MIDI or USB cable into the computer or MIDI interface, which your Fast Track Ultra already has, turn it on, and go. But, you're stuck with ONLY the sounds that come in that particular sound generator. Some inexpensive ones only have just General MIDI and General MIDI 2 sound sets, some of them may have 1,000 sounds. PG Music sells the Roland SD50 Sound Canvas, which has over 1,100 sounds. http://www.pgmusic.com/rolandsd50.win.htm You'll probably find the sound that will work for you in that. That SD-50 would work very nicely in your setup, and you could use your MIDI Controller keyboard to play it, but personally, I would be looking at a keyboard that has the sounds built into . Furthermore, because of my lack of playing skills, I like 'arranger keyboards' and some of the latest ones have some pretty awesome features, as well as truly professional level sounds. My last keyboard was a Korg PA80. It's a great keyboard with good sounds. This is "On Green Dolphin Steet" using Band In A Box's JDolfin style and the soloist feature. ALL sounds are from the PA80. If you don't mind spending a few more dollars, look at the Korg PA600, which is the baby brother to my PA800. Yamaha also makes excellent Arranger Style keyboards. http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-PSRS650-ARRANGER-KEYBOARD-WORKSTATION-NEVER-USED-MINT-/221442366848?pt=Keyboards_MIDI&hash=item338efe5d80Anyway, what you're looking for is a Sound Generator. Whether you go with a box like the SD-50, or a new or used Yamaha or Korg keyboard, you'll have great sounds without the hassles of having to load them every time you want to play a song, and with an arranger keyboard, you can just sit down and play without ever turning you computer or studio on. Gary
Last edited by Gary Curran; 05/18/14 10:07 PM.
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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