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MMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..................free beer............ 
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Notes, you are entirely too logical!
As Jack Benny would say: "Now, cut that out!" (oot, in Canada).
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No, it didn't put anyone out of work as we played smaller venues. This is a key point in the discussion, and a point well worth repeating, which is why I quoted it.
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Many musicians would hate it if people started pirating their CDs and other merchandise or stealing the songs they wrote. Then why is it OK to steal another musician's livelihood by taking his job away and playing for free? because, in America (and most other western countries), pirating CDs and stealing songs is against the law. however, playing for free is NOT against the law. in fact, selling cheaper or even giving stuff away, is a classic American business tradition! If you live by the "Do unto others", or the "Thou shalt not steal" ethics, it can't be OK. Baloney! As noted above playing for free is perfectly legal. If playing for free violates your personal code of ethics then don't do it. But your code of ethics only applies to you...not the rest of us! 
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Try going into that very same venue and instead of giving away free music, try giving away free drinks to the customers and see how long you last.
When I was a kid, we tried to sell some pineapples we grew in front of the local Kwik Check grocery store. The manager came out and gave us a lecture telling us he would rather not call the police to get us to stop. This is an excellent point. It stands up well to logical scrutiny, but not to practical application. The fact is that establishments have the clout to make you stop competing against them on their own turf, but musicians have no clout to crack down on other musicians who undermine their livelihood by playing for free. Which puts the scenario squarely back in the realm of change that we can't control, we can only adapt to it. or not And, Notes, to me you are the poster child of adaptation... at every change point along the way you have accurately sized up the situation and taken whatever path gave you an advantage. Most of my current opinions about the viability of music going forward are based on your posts here. Not everybody has the insight to see past what is currently true and focus on what COULD be true... but you are one who has that ability.
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Back in Olden Times, no club would even think of hiring a musician who wasn't a member in good standing of our Local 77 AFM (Philly). They wouldn't dare. The wise guys who ran the union were very persuasive. 
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yeah, whatever happened to the musician's union... you don't even hear about it anymore!
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They are actually doing some excellent work behind the scenes. However, I still wince every year when I pay my dues.
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I believe it was Adam Smith who first brought the idea of the law of supply and demand into the public eye, and how this determines price. The value of something is a fickle entity beholden to the public's willingness to pay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demandI live in Colorado now, because I had to succumb to this law and it's true impact on the area I moved from. Partially because of the public's decades old move from locally made and engineered automobiles, to those engineered overseas and chiefly built there, a decades long version of the supply/demand (amongst other factors - let me just put that out there) reduced demand for American engineered vehicles. Most people not living in the midwest really have no idea what their decisions to not purchase an american engineered vehicle did to the midwest economy. GM and the others even killed the idea of having to pay any kind of finance charges to pay for vehicles, with the Keep America Rolling campaign immediately following 9/11, where they introduced zero percent financing. Yes, this kept the metal rolling off the line and prevented economic meltdown in the midwest, but it also was a tectonic shift in the mindset of the buying public as it pertained to price and so forth. The final meltdown would occur just 8 years later, when the lending market went bye-bye, and in about a 30 day period, the lease options for vehicles nearly disappeared. GM lost access to 40% of their customer base that they had trained into leasing as the preferred method to finance the use of a car, just about overnight. Law of supply and demand still central to the story. It always was, and always will be a driving factor. There are going to be more and more people willing to play music in front of others for free. They already post their music for free online, or let customers name the price they feel the music is worth (Noisetrade.com just to name one, Bandcamp another). They already put up video content on YouTube for free. They write blogs for free. They contribute to Wikipedia for free. They participate in community theatre for free. Free isn't even a question anymore. No castigation of folks making a living playing music live, but free music in all of it's various varieties is a reality. The law of supply and demand won't disappear. Be outstanding and people will likely always be willing to pay for that.
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yeah, whatever happened to the musician's union... you don't even hear about it anymore! In Nash-vegas, the musicians' union is quite active and is a strong force on the music scene. Although I do not personally belong to the union (no need to at the moment), I have several friends who are studio musicians for the labels and one who is an engineer. They are quite pleased with the work of their union. FWIW. Best to all ... Alan
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“No castigation of folks making a living playing music live, but free music in all of it's various varieties is a reality. The law of supply and demand won't disappear.”
“The value of something is a fickle entity beholden to the public's willingness to pay.”
How does S & D relate to a situation where one supplier is providing the service for free? Consider: GM wants $30K for their car. Ford is giving them away. Which one will you “buy”? Moreover, what happens to the 'value' of GM's car?
“There are going to be more and more people willing to play music in front of others for free.”
That's true. The “selfie” culture we live in now is populated with millions of egoistic self-aggrandizing cretins with guitars, boring customers in every local bar.
“Be outstanding and people will likely always be willing to pay for that.”
If that were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Its my opinion that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with playing for free as long as you don't think you are being taken advantage of.
I can't believe some of the comments here, where is the good natured intentions of doing something just because you want to and because you enjoy it? rather then being all wrapped up in getting a materialistic reward (and maybe you already being a millionaire but still preaching the sad, I'm just scraping by getting a living, some of us are able to read between the lines)
In Ireland there are lots of "sessions" where people just turn up at a pub to play traditional Irish music just because they love it, and no money exchanges hands. It may well be that the pub sells a lot of beer at those sessions but hey the musicians don't expect any money
Also the GAA here the Gaelic athletic Association have amateur status (Irish Football) where the players give their time and efforts for nothing just for the love of the game. Some of the matches at Irelands Croke park in Dublin are in front of 80,000 people plus and genenrate millions of pounds which is put back into the development of the association and to help and train young players. Yet all the palyers and officials give all their time for no monetary reward.
Its a sad sad world when people are only thinking of money all the time, especially when they are older folks that should know better.
You can't bring it with you when you go.
Play for free if you want to, its your choice and let no one make you feel guilty for doing so.
My thoughts
Musiclover
Last edited by musiclover; 05/24/14 06:15 AM.
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this discussion is interesting for a variety of reasons. For one, it illustrates the fact that intelligent people can have different opinions based on the same basic set of facts... and they can all be right in one way or another.
I am impressed by the overall civility of the discussion, and by the eloquence all of the participants have shown in their choice of words.
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Responses to various posts...
The money:
If you are going to make a living playing music you have to think of the money. It's the nasty side of the business.
But I suppose that's the same with many professions, teachers, dentists, carpenters, fishermen, and so on.
Thinking of the money usually makes you more commercial. We learn the songs our audience requests whether or not they would be our first choices or even if they would be near our last choices of new songs to learn. We show up on time, appropriately dressed for the gig (whether it's Hawaiian Shirt to Tuxedo), watch the audience and choose songs to pace them appropriately, and do whatever it takes.
The law:
Unlike the grocery store, we don't have the clout to make the exploited stop playing for free.
Unlike the publishers, ASCAP/BMI, Disney and record companies we don't have the deep pockets to 'bribe' the lawmakers to pass laws on our behalf making it illegal.
No it's not against the law for someone to come to your day job and offer to do it for free one day a week and have you take a 1/5 cut in pay either, but would you like that?
Do unto others.
If you are willing to steal work from your brother and sister musicians, are you OK with other people stealing work from you?
How about if your job gets outsourced to China or Latin America? There is no law against that either.
But that doesn't make it right or ethical.
The Union (AFofM):
I belonged to the union for many, many years. But in the 1970s the Union, was at it's lowest point that I have seen. All they wanted was your dues and the didn't want to provide any services.
Example 1:
We were on the road, playing union clubs, with union contracts, and with union authorized booking agencies. That meant we were in each town for a 2 week with options contract, usually picking up the option and playing the month. We played a club that clearly had financial trouble (the owner was putting the profits up his nose) and didn't get paid the first week. He said he'd pay us both weeks at the end of our second. That didn't happen.
We went to the Union who refused to sue the club owner because the case wasn't precedence setting (whatever they meant by that) and advised us to get our own lawyer. We were on the road and our next gig was a couple of hundred miles away. Needless to say we never got paid, the agency dropped the club, and we had to pay our work dues anyway.
Example 2:
We were the house band at a big hotel on Miami Beach. On the weekends they would bring in big acts from the past - not exactly has-been acts, but not on the top of the charts either. 1960s acts in the early 70s like Little Anthony, The Shirelles, The Association, plus some headliner acts not big enough for stadiums like The Blue Notes and so on. They'd play 2 sets on the weekends and we'd play before, during and after.
The union man came in one night and told us to stop playing. We asked why and he said that there was a non-union band playing a wedding downstairs. We asked him a number of questions including "Are you going to get Little Anthony and his band to stop playing?" and his answer was that Anthony and the band were not in the Miami Local so he wasn't going to do anything of the kind.
We told him we would not stop playing unless the headliner acts were also banned from playing, and so he said we would face a heavy fine. We then told him we were quitting the union, he said you can't do that except on the anniversary of your joining, when your next yearly dues were due. So we didn't pay the fines, didn't pay work dues, sent in letters of resignation with the reasons stated, and that was that.
Where I live now, there is no reason to join the union, it actually hinders you - as they ask the person who hires you to contribute to the retirement fund - and with freebie musicians stealing work, what we don't need is to cost even more money to get hired.
The music business has never been easy. The small bands are small businesses existing in an ever-changing climate. Most small businesses fail in the first 5 years. You have to assess your local market, be competitive with your fellow musicians, but do a better job than your friends.
We have a lot of things that keep us working, great vocals (Leilani is truly outstanding), great sax playing (I was best in the state each year I was in school), excellent crowd pacing, and constant adaptability. Simply put, we put out a better product that most of our competitors. But we do not undercut them to get gigs. I think they would no longer be our friends if we did that, and definitely would lose their respect. Besides, we don't have to do that, in fact, we charge a little more than most.
In this business, you get what you deserve, and by doing things a little better than the average, we can charge a little more. In other words, we charge more because we are worth more.
You get as much as you are worth -- draw your own conclusion.
I suppose the open mic nights are here to stay. Fortunately that doesn't apply to us any more than the "Karaoke Jocks" and DJs do, people still pay for quality - but a lot of the other musicians in town are suffering for that.
Karaoke Jocks = singers who don't play an instrument but rely on karaoke tracks.
We had representatives from a country club we've never played at before (there are many, many CCs here in FL), and the comment was, "You actually played real instruments". They hired us, and we bargained for a price higher than they were accustomed to paying.
We get paid a little more because we are worth a lot more. I don't approve of undercutting or playing for free, but I guess that's me and my views aren't going to change the world.
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Notes,
I really value your real world observations (Likewise 90 db's), and I am glad you are not only a member of the forum, but also that you are willing to share your vast knowledge of this business with the rest of us.
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90 dB,
Your example actually proves my point about the car companies. No, they didn't give cars away for free, but GM started the zero percent financing idea and within a couple of weeks, every other car manufacturer followed suit. It's now something that isn't common, but hauled out now and then to spark the market.
I tip my hat to you and others who are true professional musicians here on the forum, making your living as a performing musician. I certainly don't have the b@lls to give it a try - I'm fairly certain I would fail miserably compared to my source of income - which is interestingly related to your forum handle as I think we've PMed about before.
My point about S&D is that the selfie culture, enabled by technology, has driven that cross-over point of those supply and demand curves right down to zero as supply of those willing to play for the attention of others (not for pay, they have some other job that pays their bills. That does unfortunately drive that crossover down to very low points - free even.
That's all I have been trying to say in my posts.
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Its my opinion that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with playing for free as long as you don't think you are being taken advantage of.
I can't believe some of the comments here, where is the good natured intentions of doing something just because you want to and because you enjoy it? rather then being all wrapped up in getting a materialistic reward (and maybe you already being a millionaire but still preaching the sad, I'm just scraping by getting a living, some of us are able to read between the lines)
In Ireland there are lots of "sessions" where people just turn up at a pub to play traditional Irish music just because they love it, and no money exchanges hands. It may well be that the pub sells a lot of beer at those sessions but hey the musicians don't expect any money
Also the GAA here the Gaelic athletic Association have amateur status (Irish Football) where the players give their time and efforts for nothing just for the love of the game. Some of the matches at Irelands Croke park in Dublin are in front of 80,000 people plus and genenrate millions of pounds which is put back into the development of the association and to help and train young players. Yet all the palyers and officials give all their time for no monetary reward.
Its a sad sad world when people are only thinking of money all the time, especially when they are older folks that should know better.
You can't bring it with you when you go.
Play for free if you want to, its your choice and let no one make you feel guilty for doing so.
My thoughts
Musiclover Very well said Musiclover! Most of us here in the US share your views too! Where I grew up it was (and still is today) quite common for folks to come together, on a porch or in a bar or wherever, and play for the pure enjoyment of it! And if someone thinks that is preventing them from getting paid for a gig they need to go look for a real job and stop blaming others for their problems!
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Its my opinion that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with playing for free as long as you don't think you are being taken advantage of.
I can't believe some of the comments here, where is the good natured intentions of doing something just because you want to and because you enjoy it? rather then being all wrapped up in getting a materialistic reward (and maybe you already being a millionaire but still preaching the sad, I'm just scraping by getting a living, some of us are able to read between the lines)
In Ireland there are lots of "sessions" where people just turn up at a pub to play traditional Irish music just because they love it, and no money exchanges hands. It may well be that the pub sells a lot of beer at those sessions but hey the musicians don't expect any money
Also the GAA here the Gaelic athletic Association have amateur status (Irish Football) where the players give their time and efforts for nothing just for the love of the game. Some of the matches at Irelands Croke park in Dublin are in front of 80,000 people plus and genenrate millions of pounds which is put back into the development of the association and to help and train young players. Yet all the palyers and officials give all their time for no monetary reward.
Its a sad sad world when people are only thinking of money all the time, especially when they are older folks that should know better.
You can't bring it with you when you go.
Play for free if you want to, its your choice and let no one make you feel guilty for doing so.
My thoughts
Musiclover I don't know what you do for a living, but I rather doubt you would characterize it as being "all wrapped up in getting a materialistic reward", would you? Or you work for free, perhaps, just for the love of it.
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Its my opinion that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with playing for free as long as you don't think you are being taken advantage of.
I can't believe some of the comments here, where is the good natured intentions of doing something just because you want to and because you enjoy it? rather then being all wrapped up in getting a materialistic reward (and maybe you already being a millionaire but still preaching the sad, I'm just scraping by getting a living, some of us are able to read between the lines)
In Ireland there are lots of "sessions" where people just turn up at a pub to play traditional Irish music just because they love it, and no money exchanges hands. It may well be that the pub sells a lot of beer at those sessions but hey the musicians don't expect any money
Also the GAA here the Gaelic athletic Association have amateur status (Irish Football) where the players give their time and efforts for nothing just for the love of the game. Some of the matches at Irelands Croke park in Dublin are in front of 80,000 people plus and genenrate millions of pounds which is put back into the development of the association and to help and train young players. Yet all the palyers and officials give all their time for no monetary reward.
Its a sad sad world when people are only thinking of money all the time, especially when they are older folks that should know better.
You can't bring it with you when you go.
Play for free if you want to, its your choice and let no one make you feel guilty for doing so.
My thoughts
Musiclover Very well said Musiclover! Most of us here in the US share your views too! Where I grew up it was (and still is today) quite common for folks to come together, on a porch or in a bar or wherever, and play for the pure enjoyment of it! And if someone thinks that is preventing them from getting paid for a gig they need to go look for a real job and stop blaming others for their problems! So now you speak for 'most' of us, Bugsey? A 'real job'? Like yours, perhaps? Neurosurgery? Nuclear Physics? You elevate pathos to a new level.
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this discussion is interesting for a variety of reasons. For one, it illustrates the fact that intelligent people can have different opinions based on the same basic set of facts... and they can all be right in one way or another.
I am impressed by the overall civility of the discussion, and by the eloquence all of the participants have shown in their choice of words. Pat, not everyone expressing an opinion here is dealing with 'facts'. They are dealing in conjecture. Regards, Bob
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Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: The Newly Designed Piano Roll Window
In this video, we explore the updated Piano Roll, complete with a modernized look and exciting new features. You’ll see new filtering options that make it easy to focus on specific note groups, smoother and more intuitive note entry and editing, and enhanced options for zooming, looping, and more.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®
With your version 2026 for Windows Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
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