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Josie,
Busking is not even close to playing for free. It is a gig and as you state you have booked other better paying gigs from it, besides you are getting tips.
What I am speaking about is the what 99% of the replies have addressed and that is the business dangles the lure of a better pay day or even stardom down the road if only you'll sacrifice your payday until he is making enough money to afford you.
Great analogies within this thread but Notes' line regarding who all gets paid at the club IMHO states it best, if they get paid why shouldn't the musicians get paid?
Of course your experience with the open mic cat and you must bring 10 people may just take the cake for the cheapest $@B I have ever heard of. This is now just another reason why I do not go to open mics.
PS: See you at your set this Saturday, you are taking the Jelly by storm.
Later,
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Matt,
Great point, they have a budget for toilet paper but none for live music. Maybe because they know the paper salesman will not give them free toilet paper. LOL
Later,
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I agree totally regarding your statement about busking and will offer another great site/sites . . . anywhere within the French Quarter in New Orleans.
Later,
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All great points Herb.
Thanks,
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Notes,
Nothing left in the shadows within your points Sir all in all some very good guidelines to follow.
Thanks,
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I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so. I wouldn't sweat it at all! Each person should do what is right for them and pay no attention to those who would claim you are harming "real" musicians by working cheap or for free! Funny how someone would make such a claim and then replace real musicians in their own act with BIAB so they can work cheaper!  Where are you working Bugsey?  so nice of you to ask, Chuckles! just last week we got a gig in your neck of the woods for $300! 
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 05/18/14 08:25 PM.
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No doubt, there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate. No matter what side you find yourself on, realize that the economy is always the driving force in business decisions. What worked ten years ago may not work now, and in 5 years that will have changed again.
Buggy whip manufacturers didn't see the "automobile thing" coming. Record companies didn't see the "music downloads" thing coming until it was too late. You have to adapt to the changing conditions or you risk being swept away by the changing of the tides. 30 years ago if you had told me that bands would be making HALF the money we were being paid back then...AND.... not adjusted for inflation, I'd have thought you were seriously crazy. Times have changed and certainly not for the better in the live music business.
I believe, that if you want to be successful in the music business, one of those factors is that you don't worry about the money. You play music because you love it, or you don't do it. If you play for a price or you play for free, do it like you're getting paid a million bucks or don't do either. It's not work. It's music.
Anyone who really wants to play to an audience will always find the way to do so. On the street corner, in the nursing homes and hospitals, or on the CMT music awards show..... where there's a will, there tends to be a way.
Musically, I'm where I want to be right now. I've played for free more times than I can remember. I've played for money where I thought I was rich when they handed me that cash at the night's end. I've played for 2 people..... the bartender and the waitress, and I've played on a stage in front of tens of thousands. Like I said in the other post, I've been there and I've done that... more than once.
I have no problem with anyone who is willing to walk on a stage and sing a song for free. Nor do I have any problem with a musician commanding top dollar for their performance.
Everyone has to start somewhere. And I can guarantee, it is a rare musician who has never played for free.
So.... unless you are that rare musician, one who has always been paid to perform and sing from the very first time you ever performed in public, you have no business telling other musicians to "do as I say, not as I do" when it comes to playing for free.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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There was a time, not long ago, when clubs used to hire bands 6 nights a week, and paid them on the off nights knowing that they will make that money back and then some on the hot nights.
By holding an open mic night on an off night, they can avoid paying the band on those nights, and take home more money on the hot nights.
So playing at an open mic night not only exploits the freebie musician, it does hurt the income of the professional musician.
For those of you who go to open mic nights and have a 'day job'. How would you like it if your boss decided to give you Mondays off WITHOUT PAY because someone volunteered to come and do your job for free?
If you are not OK with that, please do unto others.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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For those of you who go to open mic nights and have a 'day job'. How would you like it if your boss decided to give you Mondays off WITHOUT PAY because someone volunteered to come and do your job for free?
excellent comparison, Notes!
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"It's not work. It's music." I'll try to remember that when I'm loading the amps and PA into the trailer.
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So playing at an open mic night not only exploits the freebie musician, it does hurt the income of the professional musician.
For those of you who go to open mic nights and have a 'day job'. How would you like it if your boss decided to give you Mondays off WITHOUT PAY because someone volunteered to come and do your job for free?
If you are not OK with that, please do unto others. A club owner cuts costs by having an open mic night and thereby avoids paying the musicians. You sell/support software designed to allow musicians to cut costs by eliminating the drummer and/or the bass player and/or others. Isn't that pretty much the same thing?
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Actually, it's not. And in the case of most OM's, there is someone getting paid – the person who provides the PA and backline. They're just getting a fraction of what a band would get; and most of them are musicians themselves. Rather cannibalistic, no?
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No doubt, there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate. No matter what side you find yourself on, realize that the economy is always the driving force in business decisions. What worked ten years ago may not work now, and in 5 years that will have changed again.
Buggy whip manufacturers didn't see the "automobile thing" coming. Record companies didn't see the "music downloads" thing coming until it was too late. You have to adapt to the changing conditions or you risk being swept away by the changing of the tides. 30 years ago if you had told me that bands would be making HALF the money we were being paid back then...AND.... not adjusted for inflation, I'd have thought you were seriously crazy. Times have changed and certainly not for the better in the live music business.
I believe, that if you want to be successful in the music business, one of those factors is that you don't worry about the money. You play music because you love it, or you don't do it. If you play for a price or you play for free, do it like you're getting paid a million bucks or don't do either. It's not work. It's music.
Anyone who really wants to play to an audience will always find the way to do so. On the street corner, in the nursing homes and hospitals, or on the CMT music awards show..... where there's a will, there tends to be a way.
Musically, I'm where I want to be right now. I've played for free more times than I can remember. I've played for money where I thought I was rich when they handed me that cash at the night's end. I've played for 2 people..... the bartender and the waitress, and I've played on a stage in front of tens of thousands. Like I said in the other post, I've been there and I've done that... more than once.
I have no problem with anyone who is willing to walk on a stage and sing a song for free. Nor do I have any problem with a musician commanding top dollar for their performance.
Everyone has to start somewhere. And I can guarantee, it is a rare musician who has never played for free.
So.... unless you are that rare musician, one who has always been paid to perform and sing from the very first time you ever performed in public, you have no business telling other musicians to "do as I say, not as I do" when it comes to playing for free. Plus one from me
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"It's not work. It's music." I'll try to remember that when I'm loading the amps and PA into the trailer. this is one reason why I think the online busking sites are part of the new paradigm. Talented people, regardless of their age, can get set up ONCE and perform for pay without ever having to schlep gear... whick kinda puts it back in the realm of fun more than the realm of work. There are more of these sites appearing all the time... you could play the entire circuit, and it would be like touring but without the hassle. Since these sites are spread all over the place, each having its own core group of participants and audience, so especially if you make it known that you have CDs for sale, its a good way to make your music known to a lot of people without going through a middle man who wants a cut. Individuals or bands can perform on these sites.
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baloney! if you are using backing tracks to eliminate the cost of other musicians you have no right to complain about a club owner using open mics to eliminate the cost of musicians!
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That's true Pat. It's a lot less stressful than actually playing out. I was merely pointing out that a statement like "It's not work. It's music." is fatuous. Load in, setup, 4 hours of playing, load out and a few hours travel time is indeed work. Not to mention the hundreds of hours in rehearsal, arranging, etc. Anyone who thinks that isn't work is either delusional or has never done it.
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That's true Pat. It's a lot less stressful than actually playing out. I was merely pointing out that a statement like "It's not work. It's music." is fatuous. Load in, setup, 4 hours of playing, load out and a few hours travel time is indeed work. Not to mention the hundreds of hours in rehearsal, arranging, etc. Anyone who thinks that isn't work is either delusional or has never done it. I agree 100%. The average workin' person would have to kick it into a higher gear in order to pour as much effort into his/her job as the average musician pours into his. still.. I hate that nobody ever applauds when I make a turbine blade at my day job... ;-(
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No doubt, there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate. No matter what side you find yourself on, realize that the economy is always the driving force in business decisions. What worked ten years ago may not work now, and in 5 years that will have changed again.
Buggy whip manufacturers didn't see the "automobile thing" coming. Record companies didn't see the "music downloads" thing coming until it was too late. You have to adapt to the changing conditions or you risk being swept away by the changing of the tides. 30 years ago if you had told me that bands would be making HALF the money we were being paid back then...AND.... not adjusted for inflation, I'd have thought you were seriously crazy. Times have changed and certainly not for the better in the live music business.
I believe, that if you want to be successful in the music business, one of those factors is that you don't worry about the money. You play music because you love it, or you don't do it. If you play for a price or you play for free, do it like you're getting paid a million bucks or don't do either. It's not work. It's music.
Anyone who really wants to play to an audience will always find the way to do so. On the street corner, in the nursing homes and hospitals, or on the CMT music awards show..... where there's a will, there tends to be a way.
Musically, I'm where I want to be right now. I've played for free more times than I can remember. I've played for money where I thought I was rich when they handed me that cash at the night's end. I've played for 2 people..... the bartender and the waitress, and I've played on a stage in front of tens of thousands. Like I said in the other post, I've been there and I've done that... more than once.
I have no problem with anyone who is willing to walk on a stage and sing a song for free. Nor do I have any problem with a musician commanding top dollar for their performance.
Everyone has to start somewhere. And I can guarantee, it is a rare musician who has never played for free.
So.... unless you are that rare musician, one who has always been paid to perform and sing from the very first time you ever performed in public, you have no business telling other musicians to "do as I say, not as I do" when it comes to playing for free. Plus one from me +1
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Somehow, I feel like the oddball in this conversation.
I live in 1 of 18 Nursing Homes owned by the same for-profit corporation. I see nearly nothing being allocated to patient entertainment so I'm attempting an end-run around the corporation out of my love and concern for the patients who have absolutely nothing to say in budgetary matters yet deserve some quality entertainment.
I have no intention to dilute the value of any band or solo entertainer by asking friends to play here for free but, unfortunately, it comes down to free versus none.
I think entertainment money is available but is currently being diverted to beautification, plants, and outdoor detailing. They are currently doing a multimillion dollar remodeling which will provide them an excuse to cry "poverty".
So I'm left with a dilemma; To ask my countless musician friends worldwide to entertain pro bono, or, conversely, to watch the elderly patients with Alzheimer's, Dementia, Chronic Pain, Hospice (end of life) Patients, withdraw further into mental darkness without the stimulation provided by music, the only activity that utilizes 100% of the brain. I choose the former.
Perhaps a deciding factor - there is still room here for your mother! Don, 1st of all you are "in no way" are diluting the pay or worth of anyone, much less musicians. This conversation was started because of so many restaurants, bars and coffee shops using working musicians to ring their registers with no pay to the musician, just promises. Regarding Budgets: Not sure about yours but nearly all nursing homes do have an entertainment budget. However it is up to the entertainment director and management to choose how it is spent, and the good ones spend it on what their clients like. I have seen that entertainment budgets are spent on everything from live entertainment to field trips and even shopping trips to Walmart. For instance in my area it varies market to market, i.e. the live entertainments for nursing homes and retirement facilities budgets for the New Orleans and Gulf Coast area budget for live entertainment runs 75.00 - 125.00. With the nursing homes being on the lower side of that scale, simply because they have smaller budgets than the mega retirement facilities who get pretty big bucks for their apartments, with some even having a required buyin before you can move in. The shows being booked, I might add includes shows from musicians, puppeteers and comedians. While further up the road a few miles the budgets seem to be set a little lower, but likewise the acts in this market tend to charge less for their product than the rest of the state. Point is many musicians limit their paydays because of many reasons only know to them, I can just speculate. With this said I do know we will be rocking your joint on June 27th! and I would "gladly pay out of my pocket" for the "privileged" of doing so . . . might even sing an Irish tune or two. But you may have to buy me a drink for that . . . lol Take care partner,
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I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so. I wouldn't sweat it at all! Each person should do what is right for them and pay no attention to those who would claim you are harming "real" musicians by working cheap or for free! Funny how someone would make such a claim and then replace real musicians in their own act with BIAB so they can work cheaper! John, Just FYI . . . I would love to work live musicians on every gig, and yes would take less pay for many reasons. First of all I do not need the money, secondly I grew up playing with other musicians. But considering my age, the type of music I love to play and how that would relate with the age and type of musicians I would have knocking on my door as a result of a Graig's list ad, I will choose to go with the backing tracks every-time. So for me anyway, the thought of being able to work cheaper never enters into the thought process on the road to decision making. Later,
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Last Chance! The Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® Special Ends Today (May 31, 2026) at 11:59pm PDT!
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Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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