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prop·er·ty noun \ˈprä-pər-tē\ : something that is owned by a person, business, etc. : a piece of land often with buildings on it that is owned by a person, business, etc. : a special quality or characteristic of something http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/property Hmm, pretty sure I have a reasonable understanding of what property is... I don't actually believe I'm really stupid ya know... I do, however, subscribe to the original intent, as I understand it, of copyright. Which was to give the originator of an idea an opportunity to capitalise on it for a reasonable period of time (25 years), and then have it enter the public domain, in a deliberate attempt to create a rich and diverse public domain that would consequently create a rich and diverse set of opportunities to build on the work of others instead of having said work tied up so tightly that no one could take it to the next level. The result of the current system actually stifles development and diversity because it limits access to those who can most effectively, umm, "borrow"... or who have the resources of the major corporates who seem to effectively make sure the originator makes nothing anyway.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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prop·er·ty noun \ˈprä-pər-tē\ : something that is owned by a person, business, etc. : a piece of land often with buildings on it that is owned by a person, business, etc. : a special quality or characteristic of something http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/property Hmm, pretty sure I have a reasonable understanding of what property is... I don't actually believe I'm really stupid ya know... I do, however, subscribe to the original intent, as I understand it, of copyright. Which was to give the originator of an idea an opportunity to capitalise on it for a reasonable period of time (25 years), and then have it enter the public domain, in a deliberate attempt to create a rich and diverse public domain that would consequently create a rich and diverse set of opportunities to build on the work of others instead of having said work tied up so tightly that no one could take it to the next level. The result of the current system actually stifles development and diversity because it limits access to those who can most effectively, umm, "borrow"... or who have the resources of the major corporates who seem to effectively make sure the originator makes nothing anyway. Lawrie, It was not my intent to call you stupid. I only wanted to point out that intellectual property is still property. BTW, here in the US, the original Copyright Act of 1790 called for a copyright period of fourteen years. Do you think that's "fair". I don't. http://www.copyright.gov/history/1790act.pdf I guess that one feels differently about this issue when one actually has a dog in the fight.
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So... in most cases, by the time ASCAP or BMI get involved, the song ownership has already changed hands and it's on no way related to or caused by association of the song with the PRO.
I stand corrected
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... I only wanted to point out that intellectual property is still property.
Yup, 'course it is, but I've never seen anyone reproduce a house with a photocopier... Ultimately IP is an intangible, that's why a licencing approach is better, just ask Bill Gates...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I hate to cite Webster's again (please don't be offended  ), but I must disagree with your characterization of music as 'intangible'. 1in·tan·gi·ble adjective \(ˌ)in-ˈtan-jə-bəl\ : not made of physical substance : not able to be touched : not tangible http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intangible Recorded music is tangible, and tactile – CD, etc. Broadcast music is tangible – sound waves passing through air. I've never seen anyone 'reproduce a house with a photocopier' either, but I have seen people robbed of their rightful compensation by unscrupulous people. Just ask any of the Black blues legends who never made a dime on their songs. Or, you could just ask Jimmy Page. http://consequenceofsound.net/2010/12/rock-history-101-the-truth-about-led-zeppelin/
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The reproduction is, possibly, tangible, the IP itself is not - you cannot touch an idea, only what is generated BY the idea, sometimes...
You talk about people being robbed of their rightful compenstation - we are arguing the same side of the point - if the IP cannot be transferred, it cannot be stolen. If the exploitation is managed by licencing only AND if standardised licence agreementa are formulated that protect the originator of the IP then ALL artists might finally have a win instead of only the canny, or lucky, ones.
One point where I think we do differ is when something should enter the public domain. I happen to believe that a rich public domain is a benefit to all society, my preference is 25 years after the death of the artist, not 25 years after the first publication as it was at one point. This gives the artist an income for his/her lifetime. And when one considers how short lived most songs are this should be ample.
Another point, when does a corporation die? If a copyright holder is a notional, legal entity that cannot die then just when can anything enter the public domain - this is bad for society as a whole as it basically kills the sharing of ideas.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I agree that intellectual property is "intangible" in many aspects.
However, the purpose of the copyright laws and licensing of the music is the best attempt we have currently to make something that is, by it's very nature intangible, into something that becomes a tangible product or commodity, something that can be controlled, bought, sold, rented, leased, licensed, given away, or retained and passed down by inheritance ....
That still doesn't change the rights of the person who created it. As the creator of both tangible and intangible assets, I should have the right to keep, control and profit from the things I have thought of and through my efforts, made a reality. There should be no statute of limitations where suddenly, because of some specific time frame elapsing, I loose all control of it "for the common good".
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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The reproduction is, possibly, tangible, the IP itself is not - you cannot touch an idea, only what is generated BY the idea, sometimes...
I'm sorry, but a song is not an 'idea'. It is a tangible composition, just like a play or a novel.
“... if the IP cannot be transferred, it cannot be stolen...”
That just doesn't make any sense. That happens all the time.
“One point where I think we do differ is when something should enter the public domain. I happen to believe that a rich public domain is a benefit to all society, my preference is 25 years after the death of the artist, not 25 years after the first publication as it was at one point. This gives the artist an income for his/her lifetime. And when one considers how short lived most songs are this should be ample.”
Once again, you might feel differently if you had spent your entire life trying to write a successful song, or play, or novel. It requires the sacrifice of time, work, family, friends and money, all with no guarantee of success.
Frankly, I'm not ready to surrender my rights to you or anyone else to satisfy your desire for a 'rich public domain'.
“Another point, when does a corporation die? If a copyright holder is a notional, legal entity that cannot die then just when can anything enter the public domain - this is bad for society as a whole as it basically kills the sharing of ideas.”
If the song is my property, I have the right to assign it to whoever or whatever (in the case of a corporation) I choose. Songs owned by corporations are still bound by the limits of the copyright laws.
I don't write to 'benefit' all of society. No one does. Without the incentive of profit, your 'public domain' would be devoid of any decent art.
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Hey 90db,
umm, what part of "after you're dead" don't you understand..? No, no, don't answer that - I can see we will not agree - either I haven't explained very well or there are simply fundamental differences that will never be overcome.
All I'm trying for is a workable system to protect YOU from thieving corporates, I'm sorry you don't want me on your side.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Hey 90db,
umm, what part of "after you're dead" don't you understand..? No, no, don't answer that - I can see we will not agree - either I haven't explained very well or there are simply fundamental differences that will never be overcome.
All I'm trying for is a workable system to protect YOU from thieving corporates, I'm sorry you don't want me on your side. You 'explained' quite clearly. I do understand 'dead' as well. What I don't understand is why you feel qualified to be the arbiter of US copyright law. I really don't need you to 'protect' me. I already have BMI and an attorney to do that.
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Another point, when does a corporation die? If a copyright holder is a notional, legal entity that cannot die then just when can anything enter the public domain - this is bad for society as a whole as it basically kills the sharing of ideas.
I am on 25 patents for a corporation. The copyright rules for corporations are this; the initial copyright is for 25 years. Near the end of those 25 years the corporation has the option to renew the patent for another 25 years. This copyright extension is a one time only deal, thus the maximum amount of time for a copyright is 50 years. At least that is the way it was 12 years ago. I do not know if this applies to the pharmaceutical companies.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
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