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So, it would appear that to take advantage of the simplified lower priced copyright fee you must practice some due diligence. I hope this helps my fellow PG users. Any comments, ideas on how I can convince them to not make me part with another $20? General Idea, Me = me, U.S. Copyright Office = U.S. Copyright Office Rep Dear (Me): We are contacting you to inquire about authorship. By checking “yes” to the three statements at the beginning of the application process, you were directed to the Single Application screens and charged a $35 filing fee. The Single Application is limited to one work; created by a single individual author; where the author is the sole owner of all rights in the work; and all the authorship contained in the work and in the deposit is by the same author. For additional information about the Single Application, see http://www.copyright.gov/fls/sl04s.pdf . In this case, it is not clear whether all of the authorship contained in the work and in the deposit is by the same author. Although you created the words and music to the song, it appears that there are additional vocal and/or instrumental performers on the CD or mp3 file that you submitted as a deposit. If there are additional vocal and/or instrumental performers, please let us know and we will provide instructions for changing this to a Standard Application. Or, if there are no additional performers, please confirm this. Please note that if we do not receive a response to this message within 20 days, we will close this case without processing your registration or notifying you further, and forward your deposit copy(ies) under the provisions of the current copyright law. The fee is not refundable. If you re-apply for registration after the case is closed, you must send a new application, copy and fee. The effective date of registration will be based on the new submission. Sincerely, ....US Copyright Office.... My Reply ---- Dear Copyright office, My intent was to copyright the lyrics and the music (Melody). I generated backing tracks ( which includes samples of live musicians playing prerecorded segments of music based on the chords I enter) that I purchased from PGmusic.com to accompany. At any rate. Having the lyrics and music (melody accompanying lyrics) was my intent. Thank you for the followup and I appreciate you helping me understand so that I may use the proper forms going forward. If I need to reapply or modify by supplying a lead sheet etc. please let me know. Sincerely, Me Reply to Reply ---- Dear (Me), Thank you for your reply confirming that there are additional performers on the CD or sound file you submitted as a deposit. We are now contacting you so that you can resubmit your application and pay the additional $20.00 fee due. By checking “yes” to the three statements at the beginning of the application process, you were directed to the Single Application screens and charged a $35 filing fee. Your work, however, does not meet the criteria for the Single Application. The Single Application is limited to one work; created by a single individual author; where the author is the sole owner of all rights in the work; and all the authorship contained in the work and in the deposit is by the same author. For additional information about the Single Application, see http://www.copyright.gov/fls/sl04s.pdf . Although you wrote the lyrics and music, you confirmed that there are additional performers on the CD or mp3 file that you submitted as a deposit. Because the deposit combines musical and sound recording contributions by different authors, the work is more complex than was intended to be covered by the Single Application. Therefore, please resubmit your application on the Standard Application and pay the additional $20.00 fee due (see below for instructions). Note that the effective date of registration is not established until we receive the additional fee. Please note that if we do not receive a response to our message within 20 days, we will close this case without processing your registration or notifying you further, and forward your deposit copy(ies) under the provisions of the current copyright law. The fee is not refundable. If you re-apply for registration after the case is closed, you must submit a new Standard Application, copy(ies) and fee. The effective date of registration will be based on the new submission. If you have questions, please respond to this email and include a daytime phone number where we can reach you. If you need technical assistance with the resubmission process, you can contact Copyright Technology Office at (202) 707-3002 or ctoinfo@loc.gov. Sincerely, U.S. Copyright Office (further instructions beyond this point tell me how to separate myself from an additional $20 resting contently in my wallet).
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IMO you do not need to tell them that anyone else was involved in the writing of your song! In fact, no one else was involved. You are not copyrighting the performance. You are copywriting the lyrics and melody. And furthermore you should probably be submitting multiple songs per application to save even more money!
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I just received the same email. This is a major problem. If I have to list and verify every BIAB musician used on the recording just to obtain a copyright, I will have to submit only guitar/vocal or piano/vocal files to the CO.
One of the main reasons I got the program was for copyrights. This is not good.
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I have sent many BiaB generated songs for copyright and I have never had this problem. You have to be very careful of what you check in the application. You are the sole writer of the song and as been previously stated you are copyrighting the lyrics and melody NOT the performance.
When I copyright songs for myself and the guys I record with, B&H Guitars and Pumping Station Road, I put 6-10 songs on each copyright application. The plus side of this is that you can save a lot of money. The minus side is that if someone wants rights to one song they also get the rights to all of the other songs listed with it.
I think my wife has started to show the first signs of dementia.
She said she can't remember what she ever saw in me!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I can't speak for PG Music's styles, but if you copyright a song with my styles, you do not have to list me as a musician. I consider my styles to be a tool, and whatever songs you make with my tools are yours. You of course can't give the styles away or copyright them, but when you generate a song with BiaB and my styles, you have my blessings to not include me as a musician in the copyright form.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I have sent many BiaB generated songs for copyright and I have never had this problem. You have to be very careful of what you check in the application. You are the sole writer of the song and as been previously stated you are copyrighting the lyrics and melody NOT the performance.
When I copyright songs for myself and the guys I record with, B&H Guitars and Pumping Station Road, I put 6-10 songs on each copyright application. The plus side of this is that you can save a lot of money. The minus side is that if someone wants rights to one song they also get the rights to all of the other songs listed with it.
I've never had this problem either Mario. I'm hoping I just screwed up the application form, but I doubt it. I've done a lot of them. I usually copyright as collections as well. The last one contained 78 songs. This one song was a one-off though. Oh well. Have to wait until Monday to talk to the Gubment. Regards, Bob
Last edited by 90 dB; 09/06/14 09:19 AM.
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Bob, please let us know if they have changed the rules as that would have a big impact on all of us!
I think my wife has started to show the first signs of dementia.
She said she can't remember what she ever saw in me!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Will do. I suspect "Pilot Error" though. It usually is. 
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I have sent many BiaB generated songs for copyright and I have never had this problem. You have to be very careful of what you check in the application. You are the sole writer of the song and as been previously stated you are copyrighting the lyrics and melody NOT the performance.
When I copyright songs for myself and the guys I record with, B&H Guitars and Pumping Station Road, I put 6-10 songs on each copyright application. The plus side of this is that you can save a lot of money. The minus side is that if someone wants rights to one song they also get the rights to all of the other songs listed with it.
I've never had this problem either Mario. I'm hoping I just screwed up the application form, but I doubt it. I've done a lot of them. I usually copyright as collections as well. The last one contained 78 songs. This one song was a one-off though. Oh well. Have to wait until Monday to talk to the Gubment. Regards, Bob Bob, I knew you could submit multiple songs on one app to save some money but I thought it was limited to an album...you have submitted 78 on a single app? That is great news as I have a bunch I need to copyright but was kinda thinking I needed to group them and pay more. Do you know if there is any limit?
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I have sent many BiaB generated songs for copyright and I have never had this problem. You have to be very careful of what you check in the application. You are the sole writer of the song and as been previously stated you are copyrighting the lyrics and melody NOT the performance.
When I copyright songs for myself and the guys I record with, B&H Guitars and Pumping Station Road, I put 6-10 songs on each copyright application. The plus side of this is that you can save a lot of money. The minus side is that if someone wants rights to one song they also get the rights to all of the other songs listed with it.
Mario, I had not heard about this before. I see how that could cause a problem. But couldn't you just do another app to separate a song out onto its own copyright if you needed to? Or is it set in stone that they all go together? And anyway, you don't usually transfer your copyright, right? You set up a license. Even when MJ bought the Beatles catalog didn't the copyright stay with the Beatles?
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 09/06/14 10:07 AM.
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I have sent many BiaB generated songs for copyright and I have never had this problem. You have to be very careful of what you check in the application. You are the sole writer of the song and as been previously stated you are copyrighting the lyrics and melody NOT the performance.
When I copyright songs for myself and the guys I record with, B&H Guitars and Pumping Station Road, I put 6-10 songs on each copyright application. The plus side of this is that you can save a lot of money. The minus side is that if someone wants rights to one song they also get the rights to all of the other songs listed with it.
I've never had this problem either Mario. I'm hoping I just screwed up the application form, but I doubt it. I've done a lot of them. I usually copyright as collections as well. The last one contained 78 songs. This one song was a one-off though. Oh well. Have to wait until Monday to talk to the Gubment. Regards, Bob Bob, I knew you could submit multiple songs on one app to save some money but I thought it was limited to an album...you have submitted 78 on a single app? That is great news as I have a bunch I need to copyright but was kinda thinking I needed to group them and pay more. Do you know if there is any limit? The the best of my knowledge, there is no limit for a collection. I initially thought it was 38 on that CR, but I just checked, and it was 78.
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I have sent many BiaB generated songs for copyright and I have never had this problem. You have to be very careful of what you check in the application. You are the sole writer of the song and as been previously stated you are copyrighting the lyrics and melody NOT the performance.
When I copyright songs for myself and the guys I record with, B&H Guitars and Pumping Station Road, I put 6-10 songs on each copyright application. The plus side of this is that you can save a lot of money. The minus side is that if someone wants rights to one song they also get the rights to all of the other songs listed with it.
Mario, I had not heard about this before. I see how that could cause a problem. But couldn't you just do another app to separate a song out onto its own copyright if you needed to? Or is it set in stone that they all go together? And anyway, you don't usually transfer your copyright, right? You set up a license. Even when MJ bought the Beatles catalog didn't the copyright stay with the Beatles? I had not heard that either. It may well be true. To me, the downside of a collection is that anyone searching for a particular title will not find it if it's part of a collection. My thought process is as you have stated - if the song gets picked up, do a new single song CR on it. And no, one doesn't sell one's copyright.
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I submitted a FORM PA song copyright form one time with several songs on it as a collection. One of the songs I gave my daughter credit as co-writer and the USLOC sent it back stating that each Form PA is to have the exact same writers only.
But now, I don't even bother with copyright. Yup.... you heard that right. I simply register it with Songuard Service which is totally free with Masterwriter. Even a computer file creation or a song upload to a service like Soundcloud puts a date stamp on the file. In essence, that's exactly what the LOC does for a fee. All you need to prove is that YOUR version predates the "other" version, to a court of law. With server records and computer files..... there's a ton of dated files floating around..... so it's easy to prove. LOC is the "official" way and a judge would require it, and your music attorney would insist before entering the courtroom.
I even had a very reputable top notch publisher tell me that he would prefer that I let him do the first copyright on a song. If I register it, he has to reference my copyright registration number. It's more work for him and his staff. Same thing with BMI song registrations for PRO royalties...
If you are not affiliated with a publisher, there's really no need to copyright your songs at all unless it makes you sleep better at night and you have the cash to spare. As hard as it is to get a publisher to even look at your songs.... one that has the good connections, seriously, no one is out there trying to steal songs that are less that mega hits.
No one searches the LOC data base by song title....and furthermore, they can't hear the songs there...... only a publisher or library will make the songs available online and by title/genre/lyric topic....and they will obtain the copyright for you before they post them. I guarantee it.
IMHO.... don't waste your money.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 09/06/14 03:10 PM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thanks for all the feedback on this. I know the copyright office recently added a simplied submission and they are probably just really being picky. I will be writing back to see if i can cinvince them that the backings should be treated as "samples" . I have submitted lead sheets and also mp3s in the past without incident. At any rate, i was posting this for suggestions as well as a heads up for everyone and got so great info so thanks. I may be looking into the songuard thing!
Last edited by nobilis; 09/07/14 11:39 AM. Reason: Spelling clarify
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Isn't there somewhere on PG's website or in Real Band documentation where it gives full permission to use the real tracks without attribution by the purchaser, etc.? If not, then I would say that this is PG Music's responsibility to provide some type of permission statement like this. Edit: Here is the only thing I could find on PG's FAQ - whether this is good enough for the copyright office or not, I would have no idea: http://www.pgmusic.com/salesfaq1.htm#22Item #22 on that page.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 09/07/14 04:08 PM.
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Thanks for all the feedback on this. I know the copyright office recently added a simplied submission and they are probably just really being picky. I will be writing back to see if i can cinvince them that the backings should be treated as "samples" . I have submitted lead sheets and also mp3s in the past without incident. At any rate, i was posting this for suggestions as well as a heads up for everyone and got so great info so thanks. I may be looking into the songuard thing! If you treat them as samples, you would need to credit the originator of the sample. Lots of law suits over unauthorized samples. Songuard is not a substitute for copyright. "Songuard is a date-of-creation registration service that offers protection for your lyrics and melody during the development stage, before you register them with the Register of Copyrights." http://www.emusician.com/gear/1332/masterwriter-masterwriter/33766
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Songuard is not a substitute for copyright.
"Songuard is a date-of-creation registration service that offers protection for your lyrics and melody during the development stage, before you register them with the Register of Copyrights."
This I am aware of. It is simply a method of establishing a third party verifiable date of creation on the song for my purposes, creating a level of protection better than doing nothing, UNTIL a publisher or library signs it and files an official LOC copyright. There's really no need to spend the money to copyright everything or even just some of what you write, based on the fear that someone is out there waiting to steal your song. That, my friends, is simply not true.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 09/08/14 05:04 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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There are two questions being discussed here...1) how do I protect my songs and 2) should I bother?
For the first question, I have heard people say "mail your songs to yourself and never open the package". I guess they imagine the package will be inspected and opened by a judge at a trial some day to determine ownership of the songs! I have never done this but I guess it would be better than nothing?
I have used Songuard because it is included with Masterwriter. Incidentally, it is NOT free if you ever need to use it to prove ownership. It is free to submit songs but not free to retrieve them. At least that is my understanding. And what happens if the MasterWriter company just goes belly-up one day? All your "proof" could just vanish overnight. Again, maybe better than doing nothing but I don't know.
Copyright, on the other hand, is a pretty solid way to protect your rights. If you properly register your songs and are ever challenged or need to challenge, your registered copyright will be all you'll need to prove your rights. I am no lawyer but I would guess a registered copyright will always trump a postmarked package or a Songuard certification!
The second question is a little tougher to address! Are your songs any good? If they are do they have any commercial potential? If so, what are the odds that someone will hear and steal your song when there are hundreds or even thousands of songs written every day by staff writers and independents all over the world?
Each person will have to answer that question for themselves and decide whether the cost to register is worth it to them. For me, I really like the idea of registering a whole bunch of songs on one application! I have only been writing a short while but I have more than 50 songs that I feel have potential and I'd like to register them. But I am not convinced enough to pay $35/song to register them!! However, I will pay $55 to register all 50 songs!
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"what are the odds that someone will hear and steal your song..." People usually don't 'steal' the entire song. They'll steal the concept, the hook, the best part. Kind of like filleting a fish. You are left with the head and the guts.
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- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
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