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I do the music for our church. fOR the last 8 years I have been using BIAB for composition and Power Tracks for performance of hymns on an ASUS laptop with windows Vista. Ready to purchase new Laptop or notebook. Any sugestions on a good set up. Need to make sure I have advanced sound card for performance of MIDI.
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I have always used Toshiba laptops but I don't think the brand makes as much difference now as it used to.
All reputable laptops now come with built-in sound cards that are fine for audio. This would include playback of RealTracks. MIDI is another matter, for which an external module may be needed for really good sound quality, but there are fine software synths available. What are you using now? And what's your budget?
Just a word about the output jack. The weak link is that mini headphone jack. They break and the connection can become very noisy. Nothing like the sound of thunder through a church PA system if you even look at it funny. It is primarily for this reason I like an external sound module. It plugs into the laptop via the reliable USB connection.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Yes, I have been using the Headphone jack and I have looked at it wrong, and Ouch. I am currently using CoyoteWT synth I run direct from laptop to Amp/monitor. then into church system mixer. Been trying to figure out for years how to get rid of a faint "ringing/feedback pitch over certain MIDI instruments, most notably the piano. Budget not really too much of an issue. Just want best sound possible
Last edited by dseadin; 09/11/14 05:24 PM.
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Ok. The Coyote WT (wavetable) is about the worst possible sound for MIDI, so you have a lot of possibilities. PG Music included it for use in 64-bit Windows so people would have something.
Coyote Forte is a different product, only $40 or $50 I think, sold here. It would be a good upgrade. After that, the sky is the limit for hardware synths (from a few hundred to thousands), and similarly for software synths. Have you experimented with SampleTank that comes with the last couple of versions of BIAB? That's a software synth that can give really nice sound and is fully expandable.
I use a Roland Integra7 for my MIDI sounds but those cost over two grand.
About the "ringing/feedback" you hear, that sounds more like an acoustic design problem with the hall. There are gadgets that just monitor and suppress feedback. I would start with EQ first, and then perhaps experiment with changing the placement or direction of the speakers in the hall. But try some detective work to pin it down.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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.....Budget not really too much of an issue. Just want best sound possible Oh man do I love it when people say that!!!! Yes, almost any modern laptop will do the job. But the soundcards that the factory uses.... a chip on the MOBO in most cases does NOT do the job. Purchase a USB based external musical interface from Focusrite, M-Audio, Presonus, Roland, or other, which supports the number of outputs and inputs you need. For backing tracks in a church setting, a stereo rig is sufficient in most cases. 2 ins, 2 or more outs. Some interfaces have the MIDI (5 pin din) input on them as mine does, and some do not. New midi devices have started using USP ports. So, be aware of your needs in that respect. Look for that midi port on the interface, it makes it easier IMHO. However, direct midi input to the computer via USB also works. Just depends on how you want to do it. Be sure it has NATIVE ASIO drivers.... in other words ASIO and not some driver wrapper or proprietary codec. Other features you may want include nice built-in preamps on the audio in's, phantom power, more channels, DSP processing internally, etc.... if you plan to use it to record. I find that BB tends to run well on my off the shelf (old Inspiron) with the MME driver and running BiaB without issues. I use TTS as my default synth. It's when I open that same project in Real Band (RB) and try to play it....if it has any synth tracks in it, I end up with huge latency issues. I can then take the very same project, on this same computer, and reopen it and play it with my Focusrite Saffire interface connected and there is ZERO noticeable latency.... everything plays in synch. So, a decent interface, running ASIO, does make all the difference in the world. Just run the interface's stereo outputs to the PA board and let it play. Expect to pay around $200 (+/-) for a nice stereo interface. Hope this helps you a bit.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 09/12/14 04:54 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I agree with Mr. Finley on Toshiba. As to an "interface", you don't need one. You're not recording, just using the laptop for playback. You don't need a recording interface for that - it's overkill, and you won't hear the difference through a PA. The integral sound module in the laptop will be 16 bit/44100 Hz/CD quality, which is sufficient. I run audio and MIDI on a $400 Toshiba Satellite laptop into two different PA's with zero problems. You will have to upgrade your PC to Mixer connection, though. These are cheap, and give you two balanced lines to your mixer, and it's stereo/mono switchable: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/peavey-usb-p-usb-di-format-converter Keep it simple. The Peavey is plug and play, and transformer-isolated to eliminate ground loops.
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That's a good looking device. It eliminates the mini headphone jack and gives low impedance XLR connections (allowing longer distance cables). Good find, thanks.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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I have to disagree with 90db on saying that you don't need an interface if you're not recording. Half of what a sound card does is playback as far as function and probably 90% of the music through it is in the playback mode.
I mentioned that I encountered issues with latency when I used Real Band and had synths on the tracks. Latency is a playback issue more so than a recording issue in most cases.
It goes back to the driver. The default factory sound card driver is usually MME. And MME simply can not handle the processing needed to keep the midi/synth tracks synched in real time to audio tracks in a given project. Some computers can do OK but most can not run MME satisfactorily under these circumstances for complicated software like we use. I have yet to see a factory chip designed to run MME that will work with naked ASIO. Wrappers for ASIO might work sometimes, but not always, and it's not the best way to solve the issue anyway.
I do find that straight up Band in a Box will play nicely on my laptop using MME as the driver but not a DAW with midi synths in it. That takes the processing power of a dedicated interface running ASIO drivers.
So... if you are only using BB to create and play the backing tracks, you'll probably be OK..... but if you are using Real Band or some other DAW as the source, you'll need ASIO and an interface that can use that driver if you use plug in soft synths in the tracks of the project.
If BB plays fine, and you need to get a midi source in for live piano or something else, the interface does that PLUS.... it gives you sturdy 1/4" output jacks as opposed to the wimpy 1/8" headphone jack.
Since you said in the third post that money is secondary to performance, get the interface. It does what the Peavey does and more. Do it right the first time.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 09/12/14 07:27 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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That's a good looking device. It eliminates the mini headphone jack and gives low impedance XLR connections (allowing longer distance cables). Good find, thanks. I just picked one up on advice from the guys over at PSW. My old M-Audio Mobile Pre died at sound check right before a gig last week and I had to run off of the 1/8" jack. There are more expensive units, like the Radial, but I'm cheap! 
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I have to disagree with 90db on saying that you don't need an interface if you're not recording. Half of what a sound card does is playback as far as function and probably 90% of the music through it is in the playback mode.
I mentioned that I encountered issues with latency when I used Real Band and had synths on the tracks. Latency is a playback issue more so than a recording issue.
Actually, no. “Latency” relates to the time delays between a signal entering and then emerging from a computer soundcard. All sound cards and interfaces exhibit latency to some degree. In playback mode this latency is determined by the speed of the D/A conversion, and is so small as to be a non-issue. In recording mode, latency is determined by the quality of the A/D conversion, drivers and buffer settings.
So... if you are only using BB to create and play the backing tracks, you'll probably be OK..... but if you are using Real Band or some other DAW as the source, you'll need ASIO and an interface that can use that driver if you use plug in soft synths in the tracks of the project.
The OP has already stated that:
“I am currently using CoyoteWT synth I run direct from laptop to Amp/monitor. then into church system mixer.”
The Coyote Forte that Matt recommended will work perfectly on whatever laptop the OP gets.
If BB plays fine, and you need to get a midi source in for live piano or something else, the interface does that PLUS.... it gives you sturdy 1/4" output jacks as opposed to the wimpy 1/8" headphone jack.
The OP didn't say anything about MIDI. Only playback of tracks. And that “sturdy” ¼ output jack is an unbalanced line level signal prone to noise and electrical interference. In fact, it carries the same signal as the 1/8 jack. The unit I recommended provides two balanced, low impedance outputs on XLR's.
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Good point. There can be many sources of electromagnetic interference in a church (or any commercial building), such as industrial heating/AC, refrigeration, fluorescent lighting, neon signs (well, maybe not in most churches!), electrical wiring, etc. Using balanced cables in such situations is important.
Aside: I played in one church that was next to a radio transmission tower. We could not get the station's signal out of the audio no matter what. It also played in the toaster etc. The church burned down, cause unknown. I always wondered what was pulsing in the building's electrical wiring...
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Good point. There can be many sources of electromagnetic interference in a church (or any commercial building), such as industrial heating/AC, refrigeration, fluorescent lighting, neon signs (well, maybe not in most churches!), electrical wiring, etc. Using balanced cables in such situations is important.
Aside: I played in one church that was next to a radio transmission tower. We could not get the station's signal out of the audio no matter what. It also played in the toaster etc. The church burned down, cause unknown. I always wondered what was pulsing in the building's electrical wiring... In all of the bands I played in, none of them ever used balanced lines to feed the amps in the PA. We used shielded 1/4" unbalanced lines and never had any problem with hum or interference except one nightclub that was 300 yards from an AM radio station. Since the radio station reduced power at sunset, that issue went away as well by the time we played the shows there. Balanced is better, but often, not necessary.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Good point. There can be many sources of electromagnetic interference in a church (or any commercial building), such as industrial heating/AC, refrigeration, fluorescent lighting, neon signs (well, maybe not in most churches!), electrical wiring, etc. Using balanced cables in such situations is important.
Aside: I played in one church that was next to a radio transmission tower. We could not get the station's signal out of the audio no matter what. It also played in the toaster etc. The church burned down, cause unknown. I always wondered what was pulsing in the building's electrical wiring... In all of the bands I played in, none of them ever used balanced lines to feed the amps in the PA. We used shielded 1/4" unbalanced lines and never had any problem with hum or interference except one nightclub that was 300 yards from an AM radio station. Since the radio station reduced power at sunset, that issue went away as well by the time we played the shows there. Balanced is better, but often, not necessary. It's not a matter of it being 'better'. There is a right way to wire a PA, and a wrong way. All cabling is "shielded". XLR mic cables are balanced. Mixer insert cables are balanced (TRS). Mixer to amp cables are balanced. GEQ's to amp cables are balanced. External processor cables are balanced. This is done because pro equipment operates at +4dBu, and because hum and interference is cumulative in a system. PA speaker cables are not balanced, but if they cross AC lines, they will pick up AC interference, usually in the form of 60 Hz hum.
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I'm not talking about speaker feeds...
Thousands of bands are doing it wrong according to you.
But I forgot.... you're always right.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I'm not talking about speaker feeds...
Thousands of bands are doing it wrong according to you.
But I forgot.... you're always right. Not according to me. According to accepted professional SR practice. I'm not always right, but I am in this case.
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I don't think there is a dispute here, just a question of degree in the unlikely event you run into sonic trouble. We got pretty far afield from the original issue: connecting a laptop to a PA in church.
I believe we have already provided the OP with some good suggestions. Let's see what dseadin decides.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Sorry... the reply just struck me wrong.
In fact both are correct. The majority of folks playing music use unbalanced lines and have no problems. However, when problems with induced noise and hum occur, if nothing else solves the issue, using balanced lines may just work.
Everything in my studio is unbalanced. (Including me) And there is no hum, no interference. The fact is, both methods work fine.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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“Everything in my studio is unbalanced. (Including me) And there is no hum, no interference. The fact is, both methods work fine.” At the dire risk of incurring your wrath once again........ The following is taken from the operation manual of your own interface: 1. Eight balanced analogue outputs on 1/4 TRS jack, labelled 1-8 in ascending order from bottom to top 4. Headphones outputs and level controls This section features two stereo 1/4" TRS ( Balanced) jack connectors Mic: 2 x XLR ( Balanced) on front panel ANALOGUE OUTPUTS Line level: 8 x 1/4 balanced TRS Jack HEADPHONE MONITORING 2 x 1/4 TRS ( Balanced) Jack on front panel http://d3se566zfvnmhf.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/downloads/7064/saffire-user-guide-english1.pdf You may be running unbalanced cables, but it is not recommended for your interface. Your sound will improve using the correct cables. Not insisting that I'm “right”, of course. Just a friendly suggestion.
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