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Absolutely. Although my question referenced how supporters of the idea that steroids are too much of an advantage would apply that line of thought to musicians, I have wasted more money than I care to think about seeing a performance by a talented and competent artist too drunk to remember the lyrics to his own song. At the same time, there are artists who have lost fortunes to bad decisions made while under the influence of drugs/alcohol only to rehab and comeback and earn another fortune. It goes both ways.
In sports, it's not just steroids. Babe Ruth is nearly as famous for his strikeouts as he is for home runs. I have speculated by questioning was his strikeout record affected by him possibly playing a game either under the influence or hungover from too much drinking the night before to such a degree that his batting was affected. Pure speculation on my part, but also plausible. That's all I'm saying. Nobody that I'm aware of are suggesting that Babe Ruth or Micky Mantle's achievements should be altered because they were known to be heavy drinkers.
The comparison may not be equal but I see no harm in making such a comparison.
Last edited by c_fogle; 10/15/14 10:20 AM.
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Actually, I was responding to your statement: "... a musician who writes a hit song while under the influence of alcohol or drugs..." Writing music and performing music are two entirely different things. In fact, a lot of great writers are lousy performers. That's why demo studios exist.  Also, many hits have been written under the influence of various substances. Cole Porter wrote some of the greatest lyrics ever written - all the while packing his nose with coke. If I spend a lot of dough on concert tickets only to watch a drunk stumble through a set, do I feel cheated? Of course. But if that same person feels he can write better behind some weed or booze, who am I to tell him he can't? I don't buy the sports analogy, because steroids are performance enhancing drugs, while narcotics and booze are detrimental to performing. (Unless you're the Dead, of course)
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You think they are comparable? Curious.  Well, they don't achieve the results without additional help.
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But I still maintain that using auto-tune is equivalent to an Olympic or Pro Athlete using steroids.
you could say the same thing about EQ! or about using a high-quality microphone vs. a megaphone! what about using FX and amplification on your guitar? or what about using BIAB backing tracks? it is all technology that we can use to improve our music.
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You think they are comparable? Curious. Well, they don't achieve the results without additional help. You're right. Brian Wilson never would have written any good songs without drugs.
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"...many hits have been written under the influence of various substances. Cole Porter wrote some of the greatest lyrics ever written - all the while packing his nose with coke."
Which is the basis of my original point. You stated it eloquently.
The question I ponder is why there is no similar discussion to ban musicians or revoke awards when it is determined an award winning song was written while the writer was "enhanced" like it is in sports?
I don't advocate that such an endeavor be started, but I have speculated on the question in the past.
Charlie
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"...many hits have been written under the influence of various substances. Cole Porter wrote some of the greatest lyrics ever written - all the while packing his nose with coke."
Which is the basis of my original point. You stated it eloquently.” Actually, I have no doubt that Mr. Porter could have written quite well straight or under the influence. Are you seriously suggesting that Cole Porter's talent was due to his drug use, and that gave him some advantage over his competitors? “The question I ponder is why there is no similar discussion to ban musicians or revoke awards when it is determined an award winning song was written while the writer was "enhanced" like it is in sports?”
I don't advocate that such an endeavor be started, but I have speculated on the question in the past.” If you don't advocate banning musicians (whatever that is) or revoking awards, why did you bring it up? I sometimes “ponder” banning puritanical self-appointed judges, but of course, I don't advocate it.
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"...many hits have been written under the influence of various substances. Cole Porter wrote some of the greatest lyrics ever written - all the while packing his nose with coke."
Which is the basis of my original point. You stated it eloquently.
The question I ponder is why there is no similar discussion to ban musicians or revoke awards when it is determined an award winning song was written while the writer was "enhanced" like it is in sports?
I don't advocate that such an endeavor be started, but I have speculated on the question in the past.
Charlie Your analogy is fatally flawed Charlie. PED's significantly improve an athletes ability, strength and stamina. Your comparison to drugs and alcohol doesn't fit. Besides, if we started putting an asterisk beside every song written under the influence, then 99% of all music written would have one. Even the classical composers had reputations as party animals.
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 10/15/14 01:02 PM. Reason: added one word
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"Your analogy is fatally flawed Charlie."
(That's probably very true, this is something I never spent any time or energy worrying about)
"PED's significantly improve an athletes ability and stamina.
Your comparison to drugs and alcohol doesn't fit."
(Many writers would argue this same point? Cocaine/whiskey/beer/uppers, etc significantly improve my ability to write songs and/or increase my stamina to work hours/days on such and such project, et al
So it fits)
"Besides, if we started putting an asterisk beside every song written under the influence, then 99% of all music written would have one. Even the classical composers had reputations as party animals."
(So, in essence, you are saying that 'everybody' does it which makes it a level playing field and likely could not be accomplished without such a crutch and because 'everybody' is included it is ok. So, in comparison, if PED's were allowed for all athletes, it would level the playing field and elevate the accomplishments of whatever sport is being played. Correct?)
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So you’ve acknowledged your analogy is probably flawed.
And then you say it isn’t flawed.
You’ve obviously got some kind of puritanical or religious axe to grind so there’s nothing anyone can say to get you to dump a bad analogy.
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Bob, you said my analogy is probably flawed, I didn't. I agree it may not be complete or may have some facts that have not been verified because I don't think think about the subject often or give it any merit to research and develop the idea any further. I personally don't think it is flawed and am sure I could justify my position beyond a reasonable doubt if the need arose. I personally don't have a dog in the fight, just an opinion. An opinion based on intellect and certainly not any puritanical or religious axe to grind. I have no axes to grind with anyone about anything. I will say I find those two references to be quite odd and uncalled for and seem to be somewhat personal and offensive rather than you choosing to offer a substantive reply. So I have no further comments on this subject as my opinion appears to bother you in some manner.
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Charlie, You did say your analogy was probably flawed; "Your analogy is fatally flawed Charlie."
(That's probably very true, this is something I never spent any time or energy worrying about) For a more “substantive reply”, I’ll offer this. My 15 yr. old nephew was a scrawny high school freshman with no hope of actually getting to play football, but he did join the team. After 6 months he looked as if he could join the WWE. I asked him about the dramatic transformation and he told me it was steroids given to him by his high school coach. At the time I hadn’t even heard of steroids. He went from being a bench warmer to being a starter thanks to his steroid use. Alcohol and drugs don’t make people better musicians or writers. It actually has the opposite effect, especially if the drugs and alcohol are being used in the learning stages. Some people may think it enhances their ability to play or write, but usually when they look at the fruits of their labor when they’re stone cold sober, they see it’s not nearly as good as they thought the night before when they were buzzed. When you look at the careers of aging successful writers and musicians who’ve abused drugs and alcohol, most would tell you that they had made it in spite of their addictions, not because of them. They’ll also tell you they do their best work when they’re “clean.” Your insistence that the analogy worked made me think you had an axe to grind, and like you, I “speculated” as to the reason why.
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If you want me, I'll be at the bar.
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I have read accounts from songwriters who dropped acid and believed it helped them write better songs. There very well may be people who are more artistic when under the influence of drugs or alcohol.
So, in my opinion, Charlie's analogy worked just fine. I think where it might not hold up perfectly is it would be harder to document the effects of chemicals on the creative process than it is to prove the effects on the physical body.
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But to become a famous singer with the help of auto-tune just seems wrong to me.
But it seems that I am in the minority.
Insights and incites by Notes
Nah, I don't think you're in the minority at all. We just have a forum full of guys who like to play devil's advocate... 
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You’ve obviously got some kind of puritanical or religious axe to grind so there’s nothing anyone can say to get you to dump a bad analogy.
Bob, nobody brought up religion. If somebody in the discussion has an axe to grind, It isn't Charlie
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Guilty as charged Pat. When I thought of "puritanical", then "religion" jumped to mind.
My bad.
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This whole discussion about AT, Melodyne, backing tracks and other electronic gizmos reminds me of the “Wizard Of Oz”.
When Dorothy and her stalwart friends finally make it into the inner chamber to see the Great and Powerful OZ, they are in shock and awe at the thunder, lightning, flames and the booming voice that encompassed them.
Then the curtain is accidentally pulled back and they realize it’s all just some old fart pushing buttons and pulling levers.
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Who cares as Tv's judge Judy would say a "rats behind" if anyone uses melodyne autotune or are the worst singers in the world, if the end product sounds good using these products. Good luck to them!
Have we all forgotton that we use biab ourselves to help us make the music, even some people on the forum release cd's with only biab backing track.
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Playing or writing songs when drunk or on psychedelics has nothing to do with my point.
Steroids can give an inferior athlete the ability to beat a superior athlete. That's what my analogy was all about.
And I can think of a number of singers who can't sing their way out of a paper bag without auto-tune. It's not that they are inferior singers, but not singers at all, Taylor Swift, Ke$ha and so many others.
I heard the Britney Spears cut that was smuggled out of the recording studio before auto-tune. In the entire song, if she hit two notes on pitch, it would have been a coincidence. If you wanted an audio definition of either tone deaf or sour notes, that would be it.
And EQ, amplification and other FX are not the same thing. Echo, reverb, EQ all recreate natural environments. At one time they used tiled 'echo chambers' for the same effect. If you hit a note a half step flat, no EQ or other FX will fix it, only Auto-Tune or a competitor.
I mentioned Bob Dylan, probably one of the worst singers in rock and roll history. At least he was honest about it. And I started imagining what Bob would sound like with auto-tune, and I decided, definitely much worse. As bad as Dylan sings, he uses pitch for expression, and that's the only redeeming quality of his performances.
So I'm old fashioned. If you can't sing, you should be a famous singer.
When I hear the auto-tune artifacts, I change the radio station - and can't do it quickly enough.
To me when I hear auto-tune, that tells me that person cannot sing, is a fraud, and is denying the world the plearure an Aretha Franklin, Ella Fitzgerald, Mark Murphy, Tom Jones, Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, Sheena Easton, Brook Benton, Lou Rawls equivalent a chance at that pop fame - and they are doing it by fraudulent cheating.
Now I know the world isn't fair, and connections have always been more important than talent, but IMHO this auto-tune takes things way too far.
That's my opinion anyway FWIW.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
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100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
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