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90db, In the near future, all music will be written, performed and recorded by machines. I beg to differ. Bluegrass and most other types of acoustic music WON’T be written, performed and recorded by machines in the foreseeable future because what matters most in this style of music is the performance by each individual in the band. If a bluegrass performer released a CD and it was later discovered they used backing tracks, AT or Melodyne on that CD, it would be shunned by the bluegrass community. Acoustic music as a whole is based on artistic integrity. Every note you hear on a CD is played by an actual human being. The vocal performance isn’t altered by AT or Melodyne. It’s real music played by real people. I do agree that most Pop or pseudo rock has already been or soon will be “written, performed and recorded by machines”.
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I am anti-auto tune for a few reasons, most importantly: - It sounds bad to my ears
- There are thousands of singers out there who have practiced, worked, and honed the ability to sing in tune - auto tune allows people who cannot sing to take their jobs away - I know there isn't any fairness in the world, but it's like letting only a few athletes use steroids to beat the ones that don't
- Music is expressive because of the nuances - the god is in the details so to speak. Many of those nuances involve toying with pitch - hitting a note a little flat to express angst, or a little sharp to be bright - slowly or rapidly sliding to pitch, falling off or rising the pitch up at the end of a note, varying both the intesity and speed of vibrato - and so forth - Auto Tune takes that expression out of the music - For a great example, listen to Otis Redding sing the line "You are tired, and you want to be free" on the song I've been loving you too long. He hits "Tired" flat, gradually pulls it up almost to pitch and it expresses his pain. If he hit it perfectly it wouldn't sound like pain. I manipulate pitch on my voice, sax, guitar, synths, and even my backing tracks.
Well said Notes.
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90db, In the near future, all music will be written, performed and recorded by machines. I beg to differ. Bluegrass and most other types of acoustic music WON’T be written, performed and recorded by machines in the foreseeable future because what matters most in this style of music is the performance by each individual in the band. If a bluegrass performer released a CD and it was later discovered they used backing tracks, AT or Melodyne on that CD, it would be shunned by the bluegrass community. Acoustic music as a whole is based on artistic integrity. Every note you hear on a CD is played by an actual human being. The vocal performance isn’t altered by AT or Melodyne. It’s real music played by real people. I do agree that most Pop or pseudo rock has already been or soon will be “written, performed and recorded by machines”. Dear Bob, Please get a clue. It was a joke! I would have thought that was obvious, when I said this: "It will be technically perfect music, and with it, you will be absorbed into The Collective."  Notice the Grin? Sheesh!
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My question is: If you can't sing, why should you become famous as a singer when there are others out there who can sing?
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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My question is: If you can't sing, why should you become famous as a singer when there are others out there who can sing?
Insights and incites by Notes Because the world isn't fair? 
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My question is: If you can't sing, why should you become famous as a singer when there are others out there who can sing?
Insights and incites by Notes It does not take talent to become a famous pop/rock/today's country singer or musician these days. All it takes is showmanship and promotion. There are exceptions of course but I think that showmanship and promotion will top talent, at least to many people. Remember pro and semi-pro musicians, that does include many singers, listen with a critical ear. John Q. Public listens to the beat!
Checkout person "Did you find everything OK"?
Me "Why do you ask? Are you guys hiding stuff"?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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<snip>
John Q. Public listens to the beat!
In the case of many female artists, John Q. Public listens with their EYES... Just sayin'...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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My question is: If you can't sing, why should you become famous as a singer when there are others out there who can sing?
Insights and incites by Notes It does not take talent to become a famous pop/rock/today's country singer or musician these days. All it takes is showmanship and promotion. There are exceptions of course but I think that showmanship and promotion will top talent, at least to many people. Remember pro and semi-pro musicians, that does include many singers, listen with a critical ear. John Q. Public listens to the beat! "showmanship and promotion" are just another form of talent!
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Folks who think quality entertainment requires formal training or technical ability or some other magical ingredient are just missing the whole point of entertainment!
It is entertaining...because it is entertaining! Not because the singer sang perfectly or the band was real instead of BIAB backing tracks!
If it was not entertaining for you then...it was not entertaining for you. Plain and simple. No other reason required!
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"showmanship and promotion" are just another form of talent!
Yes but NOT musical talent!
Checkout person "Did you find everything OK"?
Me "Why do you ask? Are you guys hiding stuff"?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I can play a number of instruments competently, but I'll create my tracks using BiaB instead because I can get to where I need a lot faster, and get better results.
Given the option to re-tune a vocal that's flat or re-take the vocal, I'll tune the vocal.
Heck, I'll even use Vocaloids, if I think it's "good enough".
That won't stop me from practicing and performing - both my instruments and vocals.
If a non-singer can become more famous than an excellent singer, then singing clearly isn't the key to being a famous singer.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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"showmanship and promotion" are just another form of talent!
Yes but NOT musical talent! I've noticed that most successful people have multiple talents. On the other hand, the highly talented yet unsuccessful person is practically a cultural cliché.
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"showmanship and promotion" are just another form of talent!
Yes but NOT musical talent! I've noticed that most successful people have multiple talents. On the other hand, the highly talented yet unsuccessful person is practically a cultural cliché. Everybody is talented these days. Just ask them.
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Everybody is talented these days. Just ask them. LOL! I'd have to agree! But in the context of the discussion, all the evidence suggests that talent alone isn't enough to guarantee success. And by success, I mean earning reasonable amounts of money from performing or marketing one's music. There are millions of people chasing the same dollar, and competition is high... very little room for accidental success. Those who beat the odds and make money do so because they have something on the ball that the rest do not have. Sometimes it's a sponsor, influential connections, a rich daddy, overwhelming undeniable talent or multiple talents, better than average song writing ability, a face or body that demands attention, a savvy marketing plan, access to some new technology ... or all of the above. And these days, my guess is that it's usually "all of the above" Case in point: the people in this forum are all pretty talented, but we're short on rich daddies.
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"...sponsor, influential connections, a rich daddy, overwhelming undeniable talent or multiple talents, better than average song writing ability, a face or body that demands attention, a savvy marketing plan, access to some new technology..." Now that explains why I'm still flogging covers in dive bars! Thanks Pat!
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<...>
Those who beat the odds and make money do so because they have something on the ball that the rest do not have. Sometimes it's a sponsor, influential connections, a rich daddy, overwhelming undeniable talent or multiple talents, better than average song writing ability, a face or body that demands attention, a savvy marketing plan, access to some new technology ... or all of the above. And these days, my guess is that it's usually "all of the above"<...> True, especially about influential connections. But I still maintain that using auto-tune is equivalent to an Olympic or Pro Athlete using steroids. And I know that throughout history we had had bad singers become stars, Fred Astaire, Bob Dylan, and so many more, but at least they were honest about their singing ability. They became famous being a performer or songwriter or whatever. But to become a famous singer with the help of auto-tune just seems wrong to me. But it seems that I am in the minority. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I agree with Mr. Norton regarding auto tune with the exception of slight use in a place or two to fix a vocal track I'm trying to sing when another vocalist is the better choice but none is available. Being flat or sharp sometimes helps show the emotion of lyrics but there are times when it doesn't fit and the 'right' note may be just beyond my range. Tuning helps in those situations for me.
I have pondered in the past where folks who think an athlete who excels with the assistance of steroids or other drug compares with a musician who writes a hit song while under the influence of alcohol or drugs?
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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But to become a famous singer with the help of auto-tune just seems wrong to me.
But it seems that I am in the minority.
Insights and incites by Notes
As am I my friend!
Checkout person "Did you find everything OK"?
Me "Why do you ask? Are you guys hiding stuff"?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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...But to become a famous singer with the help of auto-tune just seems wrong to me.... I can't think of anyone who has become a famous singer using autotune. Maybe T-Pain, but the auto-tune is the gimmick. All major label studio albums use auto-tune nowadays (from what I have heard). Most studio singers (including the one everyone wants to bash, Taylor Swift) sing close enough to pitch to begin with -- and most are probably pretty good. So I think you are extrapolating the fact that a) everyone uses autotune to the erroneous conclusion that b) they are "making it" or only sound good because of autotune.
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"I have pondered in the past where folks who think an athlete who excels with the assistance of steroids or other drug compares with a musician who writes a hit song while under the influence of alcohol or drugs?" You think they are comparable? Curious. 
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