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I always thought it was A/440 Hz. Of course, it may be different for a trombone, but it's always worked for me.  Well, by convention A IS currently 440HZ, but what is, say, C? If you use even temperament then C is 261.63Hz if A is 440HZ, BUT, if you are using some form of JUST temperament then the frequency relationship of C to A is dependent on what KEY you're in. This is an interesting, relevant and short read: http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.htmlAccording to a table from the link above, in the key of C, C is 261.63HZ, Equal temperament A is 440HZ BUT just Temperament A is 436.05 - this is actually a significant difference. It is also worth noting that in equal temperament a diminished 5th is the same as an augmented 4th (in the C scale that would be Gb vs F#), BUT in a just temperament, they are DIFFERENT There are also a couple of links to sound bytes which are quite revealing. So I ask again, "What is "in tune"?" Actually, maybe what I should really ask is can you see how "in tune" for one person may not be for another? At this point I'd like to extend the expression of my antipathy to autotune: not only do I think it's a technological cheat, but I think it is a "dumbing down" of our musical sophistication, creating a "lowest common denominator" situation. <edit> fixed link above
Last edited by Lawrie; 10/19/14 04:51 AM.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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At this point I'd like to extend the expression of my antipathy to autotune: not only do I think it's a technological cheat, but I think it is a "dumbing down" of our musical sophistication, creating a "lowest common denominator" situation. Great point Lawrie. Actually the whole comment on tuning was enlightening. The degree to which AT or Melodyne is accepted depends a whole lot on the genre of the music and, as you say, the level of "musical sophistication" of the fan base. If a classical singer were to use AT you'd immediately have a pretty severe backlash and no doubt the term "fraud" would pop up. The same would be true for a bluegrass performer because the fans expect and even demand a high degree of proficiency from their top performers, although they're a little more forgiving of vocal shortcomings than the opera fans. They would rather hear a few off key notes than find out someone was "cheating" in order to sound better. Musical integrity is more important than the finished product. I don't keep up with the jazz scene, but I'd expect them to also be pretty demanding. The Pop music scene as a whole is another animal entirely. The musical sophistication of the fan base is a 0 on a scale from 1-10. They couldn't possibly care less about how much actual talent the performers have or how it's accomplished. All they care about is what comes out of their speakers and how the performer looks on stage or in the videos. When it comes down to amateur or semi professional musicians or vocalists like those of us on the forum, each of us should feel free to use whatever we want that makes us feel good about our recordings. I personally demand more from professionals who are vying for my music dollars, and even though I'm a mediocre singer, I wouldn't use AT to make my vocals sound better than they actually are.
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even though I'm a mediocre singer, I wouldn't use AT to make my vocals sound better than they actually are. just curious if you also eschew EQ and de-essers? or anything else an engineer might typically use to improve a vocal track? would double-tracking a vocal also be "cheating"?
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even though I'm a mediocre singer, I wouldn't use AT to make my vocals sound better than they actually are. just curious if you also eschew EQ and de-essers? or anything else an engineer might typically use to improve a vocal track? would double-tracking a vocal also be "cheating"? I'd say: "That depends." Mankind always lived in a world where people sought to enhance deficiencies. The electric piano weighs less than a real one, an electric guitar can compete with horns while a classical guitar remains unheard in the sound carpet of a big band. Any weapon was created to enhance the strength of the user in a certain field of performance. I use EQ at my most of performances to lower the volume of certain frequencies of the backing track that compete with my voice for the same space. In this case I call square dances and the dancers need to comprehend what I call to be able to dance that call. If I'd use EQ to make my voice more pleasant, I probably would cheat, because at a campfire situation without any electronic help, it would stick out like said sore thumb. De-Essers (and EQ) are often used to correct recording mistakes or deficencies of equipment. This is not cheating. If your voice is that way that sibilants are a lot louder than the rest, it is cheating. For me cheating is something you do to hide inabilities. Everybody knows that recordings are usually not done in echo-prone mountain valleys, so echo is an effect that cheats and everybody knows. (There are recordings with echo that musicians were able to copy, just to find out that on the recording there was an echo machine employed. They felt cheated.) Artificial reverberation wets the tone, it is done in studios and live to simulate a certain room condition that creates exactly the sound I want. In (almost) any case techology that eliminates the technical flaws of employed equipment and room characteristics is not cheating. Any technology that impresses the uninformed public with features that cannot reproduced without the technology (by that person!) is, imho, in the same category of cheating like Bob Norton's example of using performance enhancement drugs. If I can sing and hit all the notes of a song when doing it live, but my voice experiences a mood swing in the studio AT is not cheating. It is a time and money saver. If I happen to play one note sharp or flat at a recording session, I could just record that part again and splice it into the recording -- or I could use Melodyne. Cheating is, if I play all the notes of a song and then create the Flight of the Bumble Bee with my DAW. For me: If I can do it without the technology using technology in certain situations is not cheating. If "I" can't reproduce it (but somebody else could) without using technological performance enhancement features it is cheating.
Last edited by GHinCH; 10/19/14 02:13 AM.
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I think it's time for me to agree with those who disagree with me.
My stubborn opinion is that if you need auto-tune to get your vocals on pitch, you are not a singer. You could be a fabulous songwriter, an exciting performer, and/or a great dancer --- but part of being a singer to me is to be able to sing on pitch.
I worked very hard for years to get enough control to sing on pitch. I'm not a gifted, natural singer. I can manipulate the pitch on my sax easily, on pitch or intentionally off pitch by the degree I want (for expressive purposes). I sat first sax in the all-state band every year that I was in school. But the control of my voice took years of practice and training.
In today's market, we would have been robbed out of all the delights that Aretha Franklin gave us because she is overweight. Martha Wash proved that. And Aretha was on top of the pop charts so the pop music argument is lame. If there is another great singer out there without first class T and A, we won't get to hear her.
And that's sad.
I have nothing else to add to this conversation.
So as I said before, I just will have to agree with those who disagree.
Peace.
Notes
Last edited by Notes Norton; 10/19/14 06:16 AM.
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In today's market, we would have been robbed out of all the delights that Aretha Franklin gave us because she is overweight. Martha Wash proved that. And Aretha was on top of the pop charts so the pop music argument is lame. If there is another great singer out there without first class T and A, we won't get to hear her.
And that's sad.
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“My stubborn opinion is that if you need auto-tune to get your vocals on pitch, you are not a singer. You could be a fabulous songwriter, an exciting performer, and/or a great dancer --- but part of being a singer to me is to be able to sing on pitch.”
You are not trying to sell music in a highly competitive market where 99% of your competition is using AT. The bar for live vocals is much lower.
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to me, labeling someone's use of technology as "cheating" reeks of elitism. and to criticize successful artists because they "cheat" according to your definition of the word? well, that sounds like a big ol' bowl of sour grapes to me!
as I have said before, do whatever you want with your music and your performance. if you enjoy it then it is all good! and if you find a market that also loves it then that is even better! like so much in life you simply cannot listen to the elitists, purists, haters, etc. when trying to decide your direction!
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Hi John, to me, labeling someone's use of technology as "cheating" reeks of elitism. <snip>
As stated, I don't sing, I play trombone, BUT I'll happily accept the title of "elitist" if that attitude will improve my trombone playing. I want to be the best I can be, not the best some technology can pretend I am. And I still ask the question: "What is in tune?" In fairness, if ALL the instruments you are using in your work are equal tempered, then that is the temperament you should be in tune to, but that isn't always the case. When you start using unfretted strings and wind instruments (whose players can easily bend notes - and you can't bend a guitar string flat) you open up a whole new universe. Even if the only one is an upright bass or fretless bass guitar - you immediately have a whole new (or is that old) world to play in. Oh, and here is an observation that might have relevance - It seems to me that musicians who play unfretted instruments NATURALLY play just temperament, it's actually an effort to play even temperament and you have to listen very carefully to the fretted instruments (inc. piano/kbd etc) to do so.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Hi John,
When you start using unfretted strings and wind instruments (whose players can easily bend notes - and you can't bend a guitar string flat) you open up a whole new universe.
I do agree with your but I must comment on this. You can in fact bend a guitar string flat with a whammy bar, i.e. a vibrato bar. That is of course assuming you have a whammy bar on your guitar.
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer.
It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
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Hi again John,
<snip>
as I have said before, do whatever you want with your music and your performance. if you enjoy it then it is all good! and if you find a market that also loves it then that is even better! like so much in life you simply cannot listen to the elitists, purists, haters, etc. when trying to decide your direction!
After I posted the above I reread your posting and realised that the bit quoted above is an almost perfect description of the difference between: Music, the artform, and Music, the business. To me, and this is very much IMHO, the use of technology to get "perfection" in order to create sales is all about business and not art. Mediocre as I may, or may not, be; I much prefer art to business. I have read laments elsewhere on this forum relating to the good 'ol 3 or 4 chord wonder and how the recording companies are forcing this simplicity, as well as dictating style, and thereby educating the public's listening pallette in order to reduce production costs and sell more tracks... It seems to me that Jazz has fallen into disfavour with the majority of the listening public because they have had their musical pallette trained to the point where interesting chords like 11ths and 13ths or half and full diminished's sound "wrong" The listening public has had their musical sophistication deliberately "dumbed down" by the recording companies. I think this is a very sad thing - if it keeps up, we'll all be listening to monotonal chants again - anyone mention Gregorian? AND THEN we come to dynamic range... WHY, when a CD has a dynamic range well in excess of (depending on whose article you read) 90dB do we consistently get recordings using a range of, what, 6 to 10dB? Way less than vinyl anyhow (same article = 55 to 65dB). In music, dynamic range is the difference between the quietest and loudest volume of an instrument, part or piece of music. In modern recording, this range is often limited through audio level compression, which allows for louder volume, but can make the recording sound less exciting or live.[30] Popular music typically has a dynamic range of 6 to 10 dB, with some forms of music having as little as 1 dB or as much as 15 dB.
WOW, as much as 15dB!!! Check these two interesting articles: http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicrange.htm http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm I play in a few different live contexts, concert bands, jazz big bands, jazz small groups and theatre orchestra's and I can tell you that it gets harder and harder to get a sound engineer who understands dynamic range. Typically they turn up the drums, bass and guitar to "11" and walk away - AND YOU CAN'T TRAIN THE BA$%@#^&$'s  I will tell you this, any time I have influence I won't even allow the kit to be miked! It is plenty loud enough accoustically for most venues I play in. Let's come back on topic - Autotune to improve sales, loudness wars to improve sales - THEY are both about business, NOT art - I prefer my music to be artistic thank you very much.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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"Art is anything you can get away with."
Marshall McLuhan
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I do agree with your but I must comment on this. You can in fact bend a guitar string flat with a whammy bar, i.e. a vibrato bar. That is of course assuming you have a whammy bar on your guitar.
Thanks Mario, and as you can tell, I'm not a guitarist 
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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"Art is anything you can get away with."
Marshall McLuhan
Made me smile, but then, is that the artist or the businessman talking..? <evil grin>
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Let's come back on topic - Autotune to improve sales, loudness wars to improve sales - THEY are both about business, NOT art - I prefer my music to be artistic thank you very much. if ya wanna divide music into art and business we probably agree that on the business side you have to do whatever you have to do if you are hoping for a shot at the gold ring! but, art is even way, way more slippery. you will not find any sort of consensus at all on "what is art?". so I would say, again, whether you are doing it for business or art, do whatever you like! if you want a top 10 hit then you better get comfortable with AT (and BTW, hate to pop your bubble but you almost certainly are NOT going to see even a top 1000 hit regardless! and to be clear, I am talking to the universal "you"!) on the art side ya just gotta know what is expected. plenty of art judges are looking for perfect pitch and if you are competing in that arena ya better have it! there are also lost of artistic challenges where it is about the whole performance and less about perfect anything.
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It seems to me that Jazz has fallen into disfavour with the majority of the listening public because they have had their musical pallette trained to the point where interesting chords like 11ths and 13ths or half and full diminished's sound "wrong"
The listening public has had their musical sophistication deliberately "dumbed down" by the recording companies. I think this is a very sad thing maybe the public got tired of jazz because it is kinda boring? nah, just kidding but I personally do not enjoy it at all. I would not leave a store if I heard it but I'd pass the jazz bar to find some rock'n'roll or bluegrass any day! I think it may be wrong to blame record companies. They put something out there and watch the sales. If they go up...record company produces more of that. If they go down...record company tried something else! I betcha if someone really tried they could add some jazz to some more contemporary music and bring it back...maybe we could get Mumford & Sons to lay off the banjo for awhile and pick up the trombone?
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even though I'm a mediocre singer, I wouldn't use AT to make my vocals sound better than they actually are. just curious if you also eschew EQ and de-essers? or anything else an engineer might typically use to improve a vocal track? would double-tracking a vocal also be "cheating"? I'll answer your questions in order. No. No. No. I'm not anti music technology; I'm anti auto tune. But if someone else wants to use AT, they should use it. AT is here to stay whether folks like me and a few others on the forum approve of it or not. I just think it's a good idea to point out that if vocalists put in the time and effort to practice vocal drills, exercises and sing diatonic scales, chords and arpeggios on a daily basis, they can significantly improve their range, pitch control and vocal quality; maybe even to the point of not needing AT. It's better than telling vocalists not to sweat it because AT will fix it in the mix. It's also okay to let them know that at least some people think they're shortchanging other vocalists who have put in the time and effort to improve their vocals every time they rely on AT instead of a solid performance based on unrelenting drills and practice. Someday, probably in the near future, someone will invent a program called Auto Solo or something similar. It will take an instrumentalists out of key, out of time lackluster solo and turn it into a well played, tasteful and creative solo. I'll be against that too.
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<snip>
but, art is even way, way more slippery. you will not find any sort of consensus at all on "what is art?".
No argument there <snip>
if you want a top 10 hit then you better get comfortable with AT (and BTW, hate to pop your bubble but you almost certainly are NOT going to see even a top 1000 hit regardless! and to be clear, I am talking to the universal "you"!)
Naahh, but then, I don't expect to even be in the top 1,000,000 on the art side ya just gotta know what is expected. plenty of art judges are looking for perfect pitch and if you are competing in that arena ya better have it! there are also lost of artistic challenges where it is about the whole performance and less about perfect anything. I think it's reasonable for a "judge" to expect a singer to be on key, but I think that it's reasonable for the same judge to expect that on key singing to be done without electronic modification of pitch. maybe the public got tired of jazz because it is kinda boring? Reasonable, I don't like all the kinds of music that is labelled as "Jazz" either, and Jazz is my preferred genre. I think it may be wrong to blame record companies. They put something out there and watch the sales. If they go up...record company produces more of that. If they go down...record company tried something else! I betcha if someone really tried they could add some jazz to some more contemporary music and bring it back...maybe we could get Mumford & Sons to lay off the banjo for awhile and pick up the trombone? I'm happy enough to be proven wrong, but I sincerely think that the record companies do indeed dictate tastes by "training" the listening public. Oh yeah, like the cowbell, there's never enough Trombone
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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That is of course assuming you have a whammy bar on your guitar. Tommy Emmanuel doesn't even need that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S33tWZqXhnkJust go to 3:15 and watch for 6 or 7 seconds. 
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Nice, but a bit cumbersome when compared to a wind player who can do it with their mouth and not even have to think about it...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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