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Hope I don't get jumped on - its fine others disagree....
I find PG's development very worrying. As I have said in other posts its like a raft cobbled together, but supporting some fantastic innovations.
I really want PG to succeed.
So please, development team sit back, relax, take a look at the GUI in BIAB, then check out the products that are actually in use by the younger generation. Frankly they are slicker, more functional and more intuitive. I have just been assessing Cubase 8 for example, its no contest, funny, the update is cheaper than BIAB too. Cubase is a case in point, its a granddaddy of a program too but its super fit, looks so young and lean and is so powerful.
If I was 18 years olds and looking for a new program, would I really settle on a program with a distinct windows 95 look, no trial offer, no free version.
Would I use it for loops when I can get Fruity Loops? Its no environment for this sort of work - really, if we are to be honest.
Real Tracks are fantastic. BIAB's MIDI functionality is powerful but very very dated. To an 18 year old BIAB must look like some form of historical document.
It needs to be said
Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 12/03/14 09:04 PM.
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Hi ZeroZero: I'm not trying to start a "war" but I have to disagree. The GUI has really been enhanced a lot esp. with 2015. And I'm really glad that they didn't overhaul it so much that you couldn't find the regular functions, and that would mean "starting" all over again.
And there is a new course from Groove3.com re: BIAB 2014. I was thinking while watching it that this will appeal to the younger generation. Just a coincidence to your thoughts.
Just my opinion.
Cheers.
Last edited by soolan; 12/04/14 03:57 AM. Reason: added text
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Hi ZeroZero,
That was very well stated and I agree 100%. It is time for a complete re-write.
Sonar went through some huge growing pains when it went from 8.5 to X1 and at that time almost everyone complained about the workflow change. Now with X3 most all agree that it was for the best, in fact I find the X series much easier to use than the Sonar 2-8.5 work flow. I am sure that the same thing will happen with a compete re-write of BiaB.
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The major GUI changes to BIAB occurred more last year, and it's a good work still in progress. I thoroughly love BIAB. I don't have a problem with MIDI implementation in BIAB; MIDI is itself a very dated standard in need of a rewrite. Music XML support would go a long way there, and BIAB is so close already.
I think Mario's comments about SONAR are instructive. SONAR 8.5 was at least a reasonably contemporary interface to start with. We managed to adapt to the X series and I finally have deleted 8.5 from my computer. I would be pleased to purchase an upgrade to BIAB if it had nothing new except these three things: fully 64-bit, a reworked user interface that adopted standard Windows functions throughout, and a redesigned menu system and dialog boxes. Of course, doing this would be a massive effort, but it would position BIAB better for the future.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I also agree. In my opinion, BIAB needs a serious GUI redesing, I would be really happy purchasing a BIAB upgrade if it had only a new, more functional user interface.
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Soolan, its fine you disagree, but I also disagree with your disagree  I have been using Cubase for more than 20 years. Every now and again there is a radical rewrite, functions are dropped but power is enhanced. Frankly, what we call an 'enhanced' gui are things like allowing a banjo to be called a banjo or adding a basic mixer - a decade or so after they should have done this. The whole program is way behind, it still looks dated. You can pay up to 669 dollars for BIAB whereas Cubase is 606 dollars for top product. The updates are more expensive than Cubases too. I was very unimpressed by this update, with the exception of the real tracks. I don't think that most of the '50 new features' rank as new features, they are mostly the sort of thing other software companies build into a free update. Again I say I wat PG to improve, that's why it needs a reality check Z
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What I like about this thread is, it is positive. Opinions are respected. Very good; we all want the best for PG Music.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Matt: Don't know about Sonar, so cant comment on their user's journey.
Last edited by ZeroZero; 12/04/14 06:39 AM.
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I especially agree that the menus need to be revisited. The selection of instruments, VST's, and routing of data is difficult to comprehend, unintuitive, and often there is a requirement to go to many different menus to configure this.
It seriously needs a routing diagram that clearly shows exactly what is going where.
From what I can see, the User Interface changes/enhancements this time around are indeed minimal. A year is a long time to wait for an update, and there are lots of expectations, with a possibly disappointing delivered result.
ZZ is exactly correct. Other products are definitely offering more appeal. We want this product to do the same, and not get left behind.
Trevor
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
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Zero, SONAR is a great program, similar in function to Cubase. Mario covered the important point here, about their decision to do a complete user interface overhaul. It has certainly paid off for them, in my opinion.
[I have only one gripe: they took away the Save button.]
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Maybe the usual market laws are at work here. I don't see anywhere some competing software providing similar features like BiaB. There are zillions of sequencers and DAWs out there, though.
Martin
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I would just love to see the broken things fixed once and for all. As far as the cost for BIAB vs Cubase, i think the price difference is due to the RTS
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Maybe the usual market laws are at work here. I don't see anywhere some competing software providing similar features like BiaB. There are zillions of sequencers and DAWs out there, though. Hi Martin Yes the market is ruling, if your the only supplier, then you can charge what you like - simple.
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I think the price difference is due to the RTS
The real tracks are excellent no doubt - superb some of them, but maybe the price difference cant be explained by this....Cubase develops all the time at ten times the speed, they also give away numerous loops and samples, not to mention very decent free instruments and effects. The very new update from C7.5 to C8 pro is a case in point, a real step change, and looking so slick Z
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Yeah Z i hear ya, but RTs are not simple loops samples, or VSTis, they are paid musician's recordings. I am sure they cost a pretty penny to make. Still that is where PG has chosen to place their development dollar/pound/peso/rupee!?!?
BiaB an't hope to catch up to Cubase, one of the oldest and most developed DAW packages on the market. Especially since BiaB is not a DAW per se it is a different cat. Cubase/Sonar/Protools are all fighting to be the recording studio DAW of choice. BiaB is not in that race, it is a tool to use for musicians to learn/develop/teach/and design song beds and such. They even include a basic DAW to keep that evolution going. But neither are slated to be full Studio DAW systems.
But i will say your point is very well stated, in that the younger crowd likes the traditional DAW environment better. It works like they think. I will say that when i have shown it to young friends they were blown away by it's capability, but it seemed not to be their way of working.
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Zerozero:
It is your opinion and I wonder what source you are getting your demographics from.
The first thing you need to completely understand is that BIAB is NOT a DAW. Making comparisons to Cubase, Sonar, Protools, Studio one or any other multitrack Digital RECORDING software is an innane comparison. Different purposes, different software.
The real magic is that BIAB integrates seamlessly with your DAW of choice ... as an instrument not a recording tool. That's pretty awesome and, to be frank, the only one of it's kind!
So go ahead and use you favorite DAW to record, but MAKE music with BIAB.
Finally, this topic is for posting specfic ideas that will improve the BIAB experience. If you wish to vent your diappointment and misunderstanding of what you purchased, please take your opinion to the " Off topic" forum.
Last edited by Ron95; 12/04/14 01:26 PM.
Ron95
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I agree with all of that, but sometimes I feel like Jack
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It is your opinion and I wonder what source you are getting your demographics from. You really don't need to have much data to understand that software with a Windows 95/3.1 era interface will be a tough sell to the younger generation! And this is not just a "those dang kids today" moment. The newer software GUIs are just better! MUCH better! Both in their look & feel and in their functionality. Those of us who LOVE what BIAB can do for us still admit that! The first thing you need to completely understand is that BIAB is NOT a DAW. Making comparisons to Cubase, Sonar, Protools, Studio one or any other multitrack Digital RECORDING software is an innane comparison. Different purposes, different software. Nope. When discussing music software tools it is absolutely appropriate to compare to other state-of-the-art music software tools. Great GUI is great GUI regardless of the program you are using! The real magic is that BIAB integrates seamlessly with your DAW of choice Well, "seamless" has a definition! When I open Kontakt inside Reaper...now that is seamless. But, as great as BIAB is (and IT IS GREAT), creating tracks and exporting them to MIDI or WAV files and then importing those into my DAW is anything but seamless! Yeah, it works but it ain't that slick in this day and age! So go ahead and use you favorite DAW to record, but MAKE music with BIAB. I certainly agree with you here. But, the conversation was not "we CAN'T make music with these tools" rather it was "how can BIAB be improved?" Finally, this topic is for posting specfic ideas that will improve the BIAB experience. If you wish to vent your diappointment and misunderstanding of what you purchased, please take your opinion to the " Off topic" forum. Quite the contrary, this is the perfect forum for this conversation. The GUI needs improvement so the wishlist is the best place to talk about this! I do not mean to sound all negative as I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE this product!!! But if we can encourage PG to improve the GUI it is a win for all of us, especially PG as their market would grow overnight!
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John, John and John you all nailed it again, thank you. Sometimes I just want to give up like Jack, I think I'm too outspoken, maybe I should not say anything for fear of offending. Then you get others that come along and SEE the same things, it gives you hope to keep going
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I'm with John John, I think it's valid to make a comparison to other music applications, obviously their different, but you can compare.
One of my points is that Cubase is obviously more powerful has more development and is cheaper. Its not just features bolted on to its original MIDI sequencer architecture.
Cubase has been around for a long while yes, but so has BIAB. Cubase periodically has a ground up redesign, BIAB patches bits on.
Biab still crashes more than any other application I own, I keep away from large parts of the program (like notation) because they don't seem to work here. RB is so bad I don't even go near it. Yes, it can do one thing I really need and do this excellently.
As I said in another thread, its thirteen years since Windows became 64 bit. What is trumpeted by PG is an update that makes us pay for a compromise application Jbridge, made by another company. I have spent a lot of time avoiding Jbridge in Cubase and now use it for only one task, its not a professional solution.
Taking aside the real tracks and loops, I don't see major development in BIAB 2015. There are some things like speedier loading of song lists, that are very welcome, and even labelling of instruments accurately. But for me the gui has hardly changed, these IMO are minor tweaks like adding a short cut to the tutorial videos or adding an algorithm to check for updates, or adding a feature to email a song (why? why not simply attach it?). Many of the "fifty new features" are overstated (IMO!).
That's not to say there is not a lot to like about PG (and you guys that disagree).
Z
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