PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Here's how the restaurants and bars feel about musicians...even when they do pay them.

“In my opinion” is being over used on this thread “in my opinion”.

I’m gonna go out on a limb and state the obvious, … anything that any of us post is our own opinion unless we are quoting someone else. It’s almost as if some of us believe that by prefacing a remark with “in my opinion” that it insulates us from criticism for making those remarks.

After all, we aren’t stating absolute truths! We’re just stating our opinion. (Where’s the sarcasm emoticon when you need it?) Hehe.

I’ve got a new idea. Why not just have balls enough to state what you think without adding “in my opinion” in an effort to insulate yourself from criticism?

In all fairness, most of the posts that have used the term “in my opinion” were in response to Eddie posting his list of qualifications of what it takes to be deserving of being called a “musician”, ……..., in his opinion.

If you are proficient in playing a musical instrument, then you’re a musician. That’s not just my opinion, … it’s a fact.

Simply stated, "in my opinion", means I own that statement, right or wrong. There's no insulation there, it's what I believe. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees, I've stated my opinion on whatever the subject is. We do agree on this however, "If you are proficient in playing a musical instrument, then you’re a musician". Ray

Wives (all 3 of mine, anyway) don't debate. They dictate.

This is all just about how I describe my version of who is a musician and who is an instrument player. If I was debating with me, I would point out that the person to whom I continue to assign "musician" should actually be called "composer". Many of us here (I raise my hand first and high) use Real Band as our composing tool because it writes and plays the backing tracks. The upcoming CD is 90% Real Band tracks with 10% supporting parts performed live. So by my own definition, I am mostly composer and only 10% musician.

I get what you are all saying. My issue is more with people who play their copy music and never even try to write music using the old party line "Nobody wants to hear originals." I disagree. Nobody wants to hear BAD originals. Write good songs and people will accept them. There are quite a few artists near me who play mostly original music and they work a lot. When people choose to play covers they are in a different group who CAN write but choose not to. I could play covers too if I cared about money. I choose not to. I would honestly rather not play than play covers, and because of that I do not play.

OK, time for my opinion.

DJs are not musicians, although they do share some of the same 'crowd pacing' talents.

A musician is a person who plays a musical instrument. There are bad musicians and good musicians. You don't have to play first violin in the Cleveland Orchestra to be a musician.

The radio, CD player, records, etc. are not musical instruments, but methods to reproduce what musicians have already played.

Singers are in the grey zone. True the voice is the first musical instrument, but on the other hand, the singer doesn't have to know anything about music. I consider singers who have applied themselves to their craft musicians, but I don't expect everyone to agree.

People who create music by splicing together loops that others create or doing the equivalent in BiaB are indeed making music. But are the musicians? They are in the grey zone to. They are to art what a person who creates collages are to a fine artist. Are the collage people really artists? It depends who you ask.

Of course you can be the collage artist in music and also play a musical instrument. Just because you use BiaB doesn't necessarily exclude you from the 'club'.

A professional musician is one who makes his/her living or the predominant part of his/her income playing music.

A part-time pro is one who makes the majority of his/her income doing something other than making music, but also plays for money.

An amateur musician plays music but receives no compensation for it.

None of the above definitions of pro, part-time pro, or amateur has anything to do with how good or bad of a musician that person is. I've heard some amateurs that play wonderfully and some full-time pros that are basically hacks.

Not of the above definitions have anything to do with what the musician is playing. It takes a musician to play Shostakovitch's Leningrad Symphony (No.7), Mustang Sally, Hey Good Lookin', Stormy Monday Blues, Sugar Town, Beethoven Sonata No. 8 Op. 13 (Pathetique), The Hustle, or Folsom Prison Blues. Some kinds of music require more technical ability than others, but that's just the way it is.

Songwriters and a composers write music. This usually involves also being a musician because it's difficult to write music without it.

I think it's a shame that schools drop music programs. I could go on a rant about what they do promote instead, but that's a different thread.

I'm fortunate to grow up in an age where a professional musician who had a decent amount of talent could make a living playing music. I see that it's much more difficult now.

But the world changes, it's more difficult for Accountants (CPAs), The Post Office, Blacksmiths, Automobile Muffler Shops, TV and Appliance Repairmen, Longshoremen, Small Business Owners, Small Farmers, and so on.

The demand for live music is indeed less than it was, and it covers everything from the Symphony Orchestras to the local Bar Band. There is more competition, the DJs, Karaoke, Sports Bar and that salesman in your living room, the TV.

What's the answer? How to get the public more interested in live music again? I don't know how to get them away from their TV sets and back into the bars where they belong, and if I did have the answer, I'd go into the consulting business and make some serious dollars.

Insights and incites by Notes

Schools have a specific goal not only to educate children, but also to predict future opportunities and prepare students with the skills they'll need to meet their generation's specific employment needs.

When you look at the worldwide glut of people trying to make money through music, it isn't hard to understand why the schools don't want to spend limited resources training even more people to do that. That kind of training (private music lessons, online instruction, printed music curricula, video, etc) is abundantly available in the private sector already. In fact, selling music instruction is probably one of the few ways people are actually turning a buck through music.

Then consider the fact that technology companies are forced to sponsor engineers from other countries because so few American kids go into engineering and the sciences. I wouldn't want to be a teacher now... too many special interest groups pushing their agendas. But one thing is sure: they have to make choices on how to spend the resources at their disposal, and the evidence doesn't indicate that we need more musicians.

My two cents. I understand that's a point of view not shared by all.

Uhhhh, what Bob said!

See I did not waste time I am using for doing arrangements :>

Later,

Hey Eddie, i keep hearing about this upcoming album, we are awaiting that thang! I went back over the posted song forum looking for a post of mine and noticed all your offerings and thinking Dude! Eddies got an album here!

We want Eddie, We want Eddie! Ehhh...Die Ehhh....die! the crowd chants. Now back tyo our regularly scheduled programming .... The "Jackson Five Story" Starring the .... Osmond Brothers!


Seriously when do we get some snippits of the completed tracks?!?!?!?

7 songs done, 4 to go. Then to get the thing sent out for the art and duplication, then the Kickstarter will go up hoping for some presale to ease the bite of the duplication costs. Even pressing only 100, I still have to wonder once I give them away to all my friends what I will do with 99 copies of it.....

No snipets. You'll have to wait! (And the suspense builds....)

Danny C, you are about the only one I know who can say he is playing the chit'lin and gumbo circuit and mean it!

Hey Eddie, that's cute! Very funny. But I think you are selling yourself short; you have friends here. Good luck with the project.

matt

LOL Eddie,

You may be correct but just FYI a good bowl of Gumbo goes for about 18.99 these days. Now chit'lin pricing remains stable.

Later dude!

I see your point, but respectfully disagree.

Take football. Does this give the students more employment opportunities than music? How many students end making their living playing football?

Plus football damages the children. I read summaries from the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine convention, and the general consensus is this: Don't let your child play tackle football unless you don't like him.

Why? The helmet protects the skull but not the brain from bouncing around in the skull. The vast majority of football players suffer from concussions, some serious enough to impair the child for life, and most damaging enough to cause the early onset of dementia. Is this the function of the school? Damaging kids? No, but it's profitable.

Other sports are as useless for employment as football, but not as damaging. How many are going to be golf pros, volleyball pros, track & field pros, pro wrestlers, pro baseball players, etc.

And literature - what does learning Shakespeare do for employment possibilities? It does enrich some lives though.

Drama? How many are going to make their living on stage or the screen?

There are plenty of other examples.

Not everything in schools today are for making a living. And should they be? Are we simply training workers? Wage slaves? Or are we also supposed to also be enriching the lives of humans in school?

Plus it's been proven that learning music improves math aptitude, especially if taught early enough. And in the early days when computer companies couldn't find enough programmers, they hired musicians because learning to read music makes learning computer programming much easier.

I think they should drop sports and give music education instead.

I'm sure many will disagree.

Insights and incites by Notes

No argument from me Notes. I tend to agree with you

Sports programs provide cash. Nuff said.
If music programs generated revenue, they wouldn't be discontinued.

"I Will Play For Gumbo"

I don't smoke, I don't shoot smack
But I got a spicy monkey ridin' on my back.
Don't eat beignets, too much sugar and dough,
But I will play for gumbo
Yes, I will play for gumbo

It started at my Grandma's kitchen by the sea,
She warned me when she told me "son the first one's free"
It hit me like a rock or some Taikwondo,
Cause I will play for gumbo
Oh yea, I will play for gumbo.

[Chorus:]
A piece of French bread
With which to wipe my bowl,
Good for the body.
Good for the soul.
It's a little like religion
And a lot like sex.
You should never know
When you're gonna get it next.
At midnight in the quarter or noon in Thibadeaux
I will play for gumbo
Yes, I will play for gumbo.

I'm not talkin' quesadillas or a dozen Krispy Kremes,
Or a pound of caviar that's a rich man's dream.
No banana split or fillet of pompano.
No, I will play for gumbo,
Yeah, I will play for gumbo

[Chorus]

Maybe it's the sausage or those pretty pink shrimp
Or that popcorn rice that makes me blow up like a blimp.
Maybe it's that voodoo from Marie Leveaux,
But I will play for gumbo
Yeah, I will play for gumbo

The sauce boss does his cookin' on the stage,
Stirrin' and a singing for his nightly wage.
Sweating and frettin' from his head to his toe,
Playin' and swayin' with the gumbo
Prayin' and buffetin' with the gumbo

[Chorus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbt1RtXNDsQ

Nope, strongly disagree. Did you read the bio and look at the course of the guy at Berklee? The name of the course is Using A Turntable As A Musical Instrument". Now I know just because a college professor says so doesn't make it so but still, this isn't the first time I've seen courses like this being offered. And this isn't something new, these courses have been around for years.

Plus (I'm making an assumption here, could be wrong) you haven't spent any meaningful time watching detailed demo vids about how to create a good DJ set. It's eye opening. I can't stand the music and you probably can't stand it either but force yourself to watch some of these and you'll grudgingly have to admit these guys are some kind of musicians. You have to spend the time, get into it, get some understanding of it before you can simply say what you said.

People on this forum keep thinking of the old "sock hop" scenario when it comes to DJ's. All they do is simply play records and make a few comments. No, no and NO. That's not all the best ones are doing. They're spending tons of time creating their own tracks at home first (sound familiar?), they get tracks given to them from established artists and they use software and hardware to manipulate them in ways you or I would never think of. They're creating something brand new from scratch live in front of a crowd. Isn't that called jazz? Not our jazz to be sure, but it's the same principle.

Bob

I actually like that music and have a lot of respect for the really talented DJs who can work the crowd into a frenzy.

Different genre, different audience, different world (and it isn't mine)

From here out all things that go wrong are Pat Marr's fault! Life abhors a vacuum.

What do you think about the Blue Man Group? They play pieces of PVC tubing and other such things. If a musician is one who plays an instrument, by that definition they are not musicians. Again, goes to my point, they are entertainers rather than musicians.

Robh,

This one has been on my playlist for a while, I love it.

Later,

I agree with Eddie.

A turntable isn't a musical instrument. There's no shame in being an entertainer, so its not a put down to call them that. As far as the Dj's who do play musical instruments, when they're playing actual musical instruments, they're being musicians. When they're messing with their turntables, they're being entertainers.

Based on today's appetite, they'll probably get more bookings as DJ's.