PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic A note to Eddie about cover songs.

Like Eddie I would like to go and listen to some original music, i.e. I am not a bar person even though I like to drink - can't stand the drunks. But around here those days are over. It used to be one could go to a jazz club that specialized in listening. That is we sat at tables with our drinks and we listened to the music, a lot of it original. Or we could go to a coffeehouse and listen to guy(s)/gal(s) on acoustic guitars singing songs, again mostly original music. There was no talking or dancing during the songs in both places. Unfortunately around here those places died in the early 70's.

Like I have mentioned I played in wedding bands for years and if you wanted to get hired you had to play cover songs - period. We knew we were background music and not the stars of the show but we also knew that after the cake was cut it was our job to keep the dance floor full so the bar could make money.

Lots of really nice folks in these forums. Also some trolls.

From Wikipedia...
-------
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
-------

Don't feed the trolls!

I don't think anyone on the forum is a troll. The posts on this thread have all been civil.

I started the thread so everyone could post their opinion and then let it go without feeling the need to hammer it down at every opportunity.

I believe Eddie is trying to encourage people to try to write their own songs. He's right about it being easier than most people think. It's nothing more than a poem over a chord progression.

The main thing I disagreed with was Eddie saying that people who play covers aren't musicians.

Rob, this is just a "to each their own" discussion really. Nascar being the example, it's the rebuild part I like BEST, so I like drags better than 500 miles in a circle. The 500 miles in a circle takes driving skill and a great car, as well as fuel management, tire management.... I get that. I just don't like it. NOWHERE did I say that people who do like it are inferior. I just said that I think it is among the things I think are stupid. Many people think I am stupid. I know I am not. And the wheels keep turning.....

I am just a very direct person. Those who know me understand that. None of you know me outside of the written word. I understand that too.

All good, Mr Rob.

defining something you like by stating how much you don't like it's alternative is pretty common... As I read these discussions, that's all any of us are doing.

I don't think any of the regulars are trolls either. Rather, I think that what sometimes come across as inflammatory posts are usually just exercises in stirring up interesting discussion. And it works! Most of the really good discussions here have followed posts that superficially might have been considered outrageous.

If we were a bunch of high testosterone punks there would be a lot more fights... but I've been here for quite a while, and I have yet to see any exchanges that really got out of control. "somewhat miffed" is the worst I've seen. ;-)

If that's as bad as it gets here, we're doing something right.

That's impressive Bob... hangin' with all the big dogs! Are you willing to travel to play? If so, find an agent and let him work out the business details. Given the current popularity of bluegrass, if you had a solid act I bet he could book you at a hundred festivals a year! Maybe set up a tour in Europe.. who knows?

Tell you what... come visit me in late April... we'll go to Merlefest and get all pumped up... then we'll record your CD.. I'll do all the left brain stuff so you can stay in right brain creative mode... meanwhile cherry pick the best local musicians and start solidifying a set of your originals. A guy like you needs to be DOIN' not STEWIN'

Pat,



I loved it while it lasted. The owner was shelling out some serious bucks to get the big names into a small town. He was an acoustic music aficionado. The week before we played there, Newgrass Revival was there. My friend and I had already booked a table right in front of the stage and we decided to go around the corner to smoke a joint before the show and we ran into Newgrass Revival at their van doing the same thing. Sam Bush, Bela Fleck, Pat Flynn and John Cowan were smoking some homegrown from Bowling Green.

I told Sam we were playing there the next weekend and I guess it befriended him. He came over and sat with us at our table during every break. He’s not only a fantastic mandolin player, but he’s also a really nice guy. Bela Fleck seemed kind of aloof, but maybe he was having a bad day.

I got to meet a lot of my musical heroes there over the time before it closed.

I’d like to take you up on the offer to go to Merelfest together, but thinking as far out as next April isn’t something I can do right now. I’ll let you know on that. Thanks for the invite.

.
>>>...The people who are being offended aren’t “assigning that intent”...>>>>

Who are the offended people, Bob? I have followed Eddie's statements of opinion on a couple of threads. He pretty much sticks a single salient point regarding the kind of music he chooses to play. It has always been clear to me that Eddie has been speaking only for himself, with neither the intention nor the effect of putting other people down. It is also clear to me that Eddie would be perfectly OK with me disagreeing with him.

Is anybody offended other than Bob?

It’s not up to me to say who was offended. Since I’m also guilty of expressing my preference for original songs over cover songs in a manner that I know offended some people, and I did it in a much milder way than Eddie has, it’s evident to me from some of the posts on related threads that some folks didn’t care for being labeled as “players” instead of “musicians”, “copy” songs versus “cover” songs, “masturbators” instead of people having “real sex”.

“Offended” is a relative term. To some it means mad as hell. To others it means slightly bothered.

After reading and re-reading Eddie’s posts on this thread, I’m thoroughly convinced that he’s primarily trying to goad people into at least trying to write and perform their own material. I agree with that goal. I don’t agree with some of his terminology.

Do I think Eddie owes anyone an apology? No.

Am I glad I started this thread so we could have this discussion? Yes.

To quote Pat Marr:

I have played in a bunch of bands with many musicians along the way, plus all the bands around us at the time.....

I can count on ONE HAND the musicians, who, during that time, were songwriters of one sort or the other.

Face it, if you had to be a songwriter who wrote songs good enough to attract fans and crowds to the bars, hardly any bands would exist. Coffee houses where a solo guitarist could whip out the original songs were few and far between. Clubs during that time wanted cover bands. We played in a number of places where the venue owner had a few rules..... in addition to his other rules....NO ORIGINAL MUSIC and NO LONG SOLOS. Of course, we would sneak a few into the shows since the folks who knew us, new our songs and danced to them all.

The folks dancing wanted to dance to something they knew. The club owner knew that bands playing originals tended to attract a more "cerebral" crowd who didn't really dance and didn't drink like a dance crowd would.

Besides, back in the day, and even now..... many of the big recording artists were not songwriters.... Linda Ronstadt and just about every country artist back in the day were not writers. MOst of the crooners, and quite a few rockers too didn't write.

Standing on the viewpoint that cover band musicians are somehow "lesser musicians" because they don't write their own tunes is just flat out wrong. Not everyone can write music and do it well.... it's an acquired skill that many have not bothered to develop or chose to develop, choosing instead to work on instrumental skills.

Nope... I don't hold it against anyone for being a cover band if that's what they enjoy.... because, yes, while I write and totally enjoy it, and mostly play only original songs these days, I still totally enjoy playing some old Eagles, or BTO, or Merle Haggard, Beatles or...well you get the picture.... to me, it's ALL GOOD.

I find a lot of fault with that comment (and it doesn't really bother me, I know I'm a world-class musician even if you don't agree).

So according to your definition Itzhak Perlman is not a musician. Neither is Joshua Bell, Yo Yo Ma, Lang Lang, Pepe Romero, nor Leila Josefowicz.

I think the majority of the world would disagree with that.

Looking at various definitions from different dictionaries online:

One who composes, conducts, or performs music, especially instrumental music. (American Heritage Dictionary)

A person who plays or composes music, esp as a profession (Collins English Dictionary)

A person who performs music, esp. professionally (Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary)

A person who writes, sings, or plays music (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

I added the bold type. Notice Random House doesn't even include writing in their definition.

I've been in cover bands most of my life. I've also been in jazz bands, marching bands, and classical music bands. Every year I was in school I was first saxophone in the all-state band. The Florida Bandmasters Association thought I was a very good musician.

I've never written a song that I liked. However I've improvised millions of solos on the spot through the years, and I've also improvised countless "response" lines to various singers and other instrumentalists.

Irving Berlin was a very prolific songwriter who didn't consider himself a musician. He could only play piano in one key and had a special piano built with a lever that could move the harp in the piano to transpose what he was playing.

Some musicians have the talent for songwriting, others do not. That does not make them musicians.

And what about the ultimate cover bands, the ones that Perlman, Bell and Josefowicz play in. Are the members of the Cleveland Orchestra, New York Philharmonic, London Symphony, Czech Philharmonic, San Francisco Symphony, Moscow Philharmonic, Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic, Budapest Philharmonic, Royal Concertgebouw, Bucharest Symphony, Russian National, St. Petersburg Philharmonic and all the other great symphony orchestras of the world not musicians? I don't think they would think very highly of that opinion.

If you play music you are a musician. You don't have to write songs to be a musician.

I've heard some cover bands that are comprised of excellent musicians and some singer/songwriters that are terrible. What you are doing doesn't make as much difference as how well you are doing it.

I break musicians down into three types:

• Professional musicians: Those who make the majority of their income playing music
• Par-time pro musicians: Those who make the majority of their income not by playing music, but who also supplement their income by playing paid gigs
• Amateur musicians: Those who play musicians but not for monetary compensation

These categories have nothing to do with how well the music is played. After the gig while playing on a cruise ship, a young lady asked if she could play the piano. She was a monster playing Liszt, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, and others. She was an amateur and never had a paying gig in her life.

On the other hand, I've heard gigging musicians who truly are hacks with limited skills and hardly any talent.

It takes all kinds.

But to degenerate someone who plays in cover bands sells them very short it is likely to cause hard feelings. The next time Joshua Bell, Yo Yo Ma, or Leila Josefowicz plays a concert in your town, please attend the concert, seek them out after the show, and tell them they aren't musicians because they don't write songs, and let us know their reaction.

Peace.

Insights and incites by Notes

And once again....



When any of those people start playing the local level bar and restaurant circuit, I will discuss that with you.

My original premise included the word "complete". It is my belief, as someone with a BA in Music with a concentration on composition, is that composition is what makes players "complete" musicians. There's that word, complete, again.

I believe, and will always believe, that if you sit a chimp at a room with a piano and play Twinkle Twinkle Little Star over and over for years and years, feeding him when he gets a note right, eventually that chimp will play the song. However, that chimp will never know MUSIC enough to write Flicker Flicker Little Star. There is a difference between knowing MUSIC and knowing SONGS. Most copy band players that I know (again that qualifier, "that I know") learn songs. They don't learn music from learning songs. As they play them for years, since their set never changes, they learn the music theory by osmosis, playing pentatonic or mixolydian scales without knowing they are playing them. There is the percentage that knew those scales before they joined "Bob's Band That Plays The Same 45 Songs as Joe's Band".

If I gave Bobby Flay a flank steak, tomatoes, onions, red potatoes and spices, and gave those same ingredients to 4 other non-chefs that know how to cook somewhat, Flay would likely come up with an original meal where the other 4 would likely come up with something quite similar to each other. That's because Flay is a chef, and a chef creates, where the other 34 are cooks, who cook what they learn from someone else.

And I am pretty much now tired of defending my position on this matter. None of you will change the way I think any more than I will change the way YOU think. I don't like copy bands. Period. I don't go see them, I don't appreciate what they do. I appreciate GOOD songwriters. I might feel different if I had to play in a copy band to pay bills, as I did for years. The sense of being unfulfilled by an art form that I used to be pretty good at just wore on my musical soul. Thank god I don't have to work at all anymore to pay bills.

I have heard my share of AWFUL songs at songwriter nights. However, I have heard some very good songs as well. Here we have a thing called 10x3 where 10 artists play 3 songs each. Cover is allowed, but 2 of the 3 must be original. Most play 3 originals. The weekly event is well attended and appreciated. I went once and had people tell me that the ballad that I did second made them think about a lost love and it made them cry. And when they said that, inside I said "YES!! My song reached someone!" And that is the joy of writing. I don't get that joy from playing lame covers like Brown Eyed Girl and Gimme Three Steps. Let Van Morrison and whoever it is from Skynard that didn't die in the plane crash get that joy.

Notes I am sure you are a monster player after doing what you do for decades. That was never the point. Whether you realize it or not, when you do those tasty improvisational solos, you ARE writing. It takes a special talent to copy Sanborn or Grover, but it took a different talent to write Mr Magic, did it not? THAT is the talent I am trying to discover in me. I can play Mr Magic, but it means nothing to me. It doesn't move me. That lack of emotion shows to the crowd. I had a band ask me to come out and rehearse as a keyboard player. I stayed 2 hours. It sounded great. They emailed the next day asking if I wanted to play with them. I passed because of what I just said. My exact words were "I really don't get into playing copy music. You don't need 5 people on stage smiling and one with a long face because he isn't enjoying himself."

But you know what? You go to your gig tonight and play the hell out of Brown Eyed Girl, and get your money, and pay your mortgage, and buy food, and gas your car, because that's what working people do with their wages.

As far as what describes a "musician", my money's still on the dictionary definitions...

Just to illustrate, take a look at the first paragraph of the book I have started to write.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.

What??? It's been done???

But I sat at MY computer and I typed it in. Thus I am a "writer".

And who is this Dickens person of whom you speak?

We have reached "whatever" guys. I never said "Stop what you are doing." I said "I don't appreciate cover music like I do originals."

And THIS is why I was gone for over 6 months.... people trying to convince other people why THEY are right. Just like my liberal democrat friends who try to convince me to be a liberal democrat. I am a staunch, stubborn, selfish republican, and I will always be a staunch, stubborn, selfish republican. I don't care about other people's kids, I don't care about some foreign, uncivilized 3rd world country being radically overpopulated... none of it. My realm of care starts at this house and radiates to a very few selected areas, like animal rescue. Nobody will ever convince me to think any other way, just like nobody will convince me to like cover music.

Bye.

I must've missed the part when someone was trying to convince you to like cover music.

I didn't miss anything else, though. Very entertaining!

Yes, that's pretty much some of what you said, but you also said that I am not a musician because I don't write, instead you insisted that I am merely a player - I did, and still do, take offence at that.

You have never, and to be honest, are never likely to, hear me "play", thus nor will you hear any of my (slowly improving) attempts at improvisation, yet you have the gall to say I am not a musician.

Somewhere you also have made a demarkation point with comparisons of people like Yo Yo Mar and Sinatra performing in pubs...

Well, I figure a club where people drink while listening to Frankie just might be akin to a pub, and how the hell do you know whether any of the other aforementioned artists have ever performed in a pub or not?

You seem a basically reasonable guy Eddie, but I think you're also an arrogant little p00p too.

It looks like you all offended Eddie and he is quitting the forum again. You know you gotta go easy on the guy! He is quite sensitive.

Go complain about too much reverb, Kevin.

I thought this subject had pretty much been beat to death but apparently not <grin>.

I understand Eddie's point of view, although I don't agree with everything he has said. I will say this though, I've been "out" listening to live music with friends and enjoying ourselves. Then the music turns to stuff they (or he/she) wrote themselves.

Our "party" decided it was time to move along. Not that the music was bad, it just was no longer "recognizable" and therefore not as pleasant to "party" to.

Sometimes you just want to hear familiar music. If I want to hear "original" stuff, I'll go to the places where I know they'll be playing that.

Good luck Eddie!
LLOYD S