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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Ok some might see this as a rant (and they would not be wholly wrong)... The more I learn about standard notation the more I realise that it is unnecessarily obscure and makes learning so much harder. For example doesn't the whole idea of Myxolydian augmented 5th sound so complex and confusing, frightening even, it must put off so many learners. I am sitting here looking at the chord symbol A7b9. How many altered notes are there? My first reaction would be to say one a b9? Well, what I have not said, is that this chord appears as the second chord in a 1,6,2,5. The key thought is that the 6th mode in a 1,6,2,5. is an A minor not A Major, so the 3rd of the chord is altered - not just the 9th as indicated. Converting to Roman numerals does no good, the chord simply becomes VI7b9, Nashville is no better. I sort of knew this before, but I have been trying to sight read chords on the piano, and it is plain that one must discern the structure, before one reads - making the whole process harder. There is so much like this in music making our life harder for no good reason - do re mi fa sol .... but what of a minor third in this system? No word at all, much less for a #4. Why not a notation system that actually tells us what we need, in an obvious way!  Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 01/16/15 08:52 AM.
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A7b9 tells you exactly what you need to know. A C# E G Bb. You're thinking in an abstract way. No one thinks of the chords that way. Experienced players have no problems with standard chord notation. The only chord open to different interpretations would be a chord like C7alt. You just need more basic chord study. Ray
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Ray, you could be right, (and I guess your more of a pianist than me) I come from a melodic instrument background and think in scales. I see things like the scale syllabus and find sometimes they call for unusual scales. When I see a chord I also need to know about the inbetween notes. Some people say the flat 9 calls for a diminished starting on the semitone.
But what does Am tell you about a sixth? Would it be a flat 6 or a natural one?
Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 01/16/15 11:36 AM.
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Generally speaking, the in between notes would be in the key of the song. There are always exceptions though. Ray
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Z
If the 7b9 appears as a VI chord in a I VI II V progression then it's being used as a secondary dominant of IIm7. Jazz is fundamentally a chromatic music and secondary dominants are one of the oldest chromatic devices in music.
Secondary dominants, usually chromatic types as you know are used all the time to lead into diatonic scale degree chords. So the major third leads into the bVII tone of IIm7 by a half step resolution and the root of IIm7 by the same half step in the opposite direction.
They can have the effect of turning the chord they resolve into a temporary tonic; a kind of transient modulation.
You can choose to relate to that temporary tonic or treat the whole 1 6 2 5 sequence as a passage in the key to which the 5 chord resolves.
Jazz works this way melodically as well, with chromatic embellishments or enclosures leading up to or placed around a target chord tone. In each case its a matter of tension and resolution occurring at a high rate in the accompaniment and the improvised line.
HTH
Alan
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Generally speaking, the in between notes would be in the key of the song. There are always exceptions though. Ray thank you Ray.. That was my point Ray, the chord symbol does not tell you this, it only tells you some of the notes you need. The other notes need to be derived by looking at the key and working them out. This mental calculation has to take place, where as if we had a symbol that showed the complete preferred scale options, inc 6ths 9ths, fourths... Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 01/16/15 07:23 PM.
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Z
If the 7b9 appears as a VI chord in a I VI II V progression then it's being used as a secondary dominant of IIm7. Jazz is fundamentally a chromatic music and secondary dominants are one of the oldest chromatic devices in music.
Secondary dominants, usually chromatic types as you know are used all the time to lead into diatonic scale degree chords. So the major third leads into the bVII tone of IIm7 by a half step resolution and the root of IIm7 by the same half step in the opposite direction.
They can have the effect of turning the chord they resolve into a temporary tonic; a kind of transient modulation.
You can choose to relate to that temporary tonic or treat the whole 1 6 2 5 sequence as a passage in the key to which the 5 chord resolves.
Jazz works this way melodically as well, with chromatic embellishments or enclosures leading up to or placed around a target chord tone. In each case its a matter of tension and resolution occurring at a high rate in the accompaniment and the improvised line.
HTH
Alan
Yes, Alan, understood, but this does not explain the presence of a flat 9, is this simply a chromatic passing tone? As a function of the IIm functioning as the one its a flat 6th, though this position (IIm) would indicate a dorian minor Just musing...
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You have to learn what the "avoid" notes are. For instance, a G# in an A7b9 would be played, (generally speaking), as a grace note. Ray
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Is there any way to study the "avoid notes" - I seem to find them all the time lol. What I need is a book with some exercises that then asks me "Find the avoid note" - and of course doing this with 'academic studying' will be a far cry from doing so in real time during improvisation.
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http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-scales Here's one site for avoid notes. Google is full of them. Ray
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but this does not explain the presence of a flat 9, is this simply a chromatic passing tone? As a function of the IIm functioning as the one its a flat 6th, though this position (IIm) would indicate a dorian minor Z Yes it has no reference to the dorian II other than to provide chromatic voice leading to the II chord. That's my understanding anyway. Ray and Joe I prefer the 'grace note' as opposed to the 'avoid note' explanation and sometimes even that doesn't apply nowadays when there's so many post-bop or neo-bop players playing freely with the chords using interval sequences rather than chords/scales and even stressing tensions on the strong beat(in Dolphy or Brecker style) rather than resolving into consonance. It's certainly still think it's a valid approach for older swing and bop styles though where overt use of stressed or prolonged dissonance is still avoided like the plague. Alan
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The b9 is there because the composer wanted it there at that particular time and to make sure the improviser plays a b9 instead of a natural 9. Ray
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The b9 is there because the composer wanted it there at that particular time and to make sure the improviser plays a b9 instead of a natural 9. Ray Well, yes that's true, but it does not constitute an explanation of the sound's place in the harmony - maybe there isn't one of course. In early Jazz - Dixie and similar, the fourth was treated like an avoid note, the seventh was also treated with caution, so you get a pentatonic sound. Personally, I like to think of all 12 tones in a chromatic heirarchy in a chord from sonority to dissonance - the more dissonant being treated like passing tones. 'Avoid' notes and even avoid chords can sound great - if - resolved, tension and release Just my opinion. Z
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Zero Zero,
As a lifelong music student, I've paid much, much, money for lessons - and unfortunately, I don't have a natural musical ear for harmony - melody and rhythm yes, but not harmony.
As I approach 50, I have had one music teacher (the gentleman that publishes the VGEdiciones.com series - Enrique Vargas) who is an absolutely amazing musical analyst (as you can see if you take a look at his books and transcriptions) open my eyes to the level of analysis you describe. Though a flamenco specialist, he has an extensive background in jazz also, and has played with some of the greats.
For years, I thought that 'learning songs' was the thing to do - and I did not progress in learning and applying theory in the context of those songs.
Now, everybody learns differently - but I will say that studying with this great teacher has brought me EXACTLY to the place you are in your thinking and the 'complication' of soloing and understanding the harmony WITH RESPECT TO THE MELODY AND TONAL CENTER.
I'm not sure if this has been so hard for me (and maybe you too) because:
a.) I studied only guitar - and as a positional instrument makes it too easy to play songs without understanding these concepts
b.) I did NOT major or minor in music
c.) I had guitar teachers that were unaware of the importance of this view of harmony/melody
...probably a combination of the above.
But I will say that the point you're making is definitely NOT clearly and directly taught in any of the music theory books I've studied...and I've collected many, many of these books.
I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with your analysis, but I'm not sure they may not think this level of analysis is even necessary.
How about you Ray and Alan - is this level of analysis even important to you ?
Would also love to hear feedback on this one from some of our great musicians and players out there.
Last edited by Joe V; 01/18/15 03:19 AM.
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In a word Joe Yes.
I too began by playing things I did not understand- they often sounded fine but I could not transpose them, or use them in different settings.
One of the things I am trying to achieve at present is the ability to sight read any chord in any key.
In order to do this I ONLY play notes I understand. By understand, I mean something different to the ordinary use of the word, I mean understand musically.
An example:
To 'understand' the concept of a triad
1] Know the intervals involved in terms of names, steps, know the minor, major, diminished and augmented forms.
2] Know how to play these notes in their inversions instantly in any key, in any pattern. This involves muscle memory and the use of different fingers (according to where you come from and where you are going finger placement wise). It involves many different ways of the fingers transversing the keyboard - all this muscle memory must be automatic
3] To know aurally - that is to play a note because one can hear it.
Knowing in this sense is both intellectual and muscle memory. It is a great deal of work (!)
When this is achieved then there is freedom - emotional freedom.
Of course it is possible to achieve all this without learning to read music, but it's the long way to go. It's about mental categorisation and planning.
My first piano piece was a Minuet by Bach. I learnt this piece 'off by heart'. What I noticed was that even though this piece exposed me to muscle memory runs, these runs were not appearing in my improvisation. I figured out there were two reasons. Firstly, I did not know the relationship between the run and the chord, and secondly I was not thinking of this relationship quickly enough to implement it.
Z
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As a lifelong music student,....... unfortunately, I don't have a natural musical ear for harmony - melody and rhythm yes, but not harmony. Joe: Have you ever downloaded Earmaster Pro? It really helped me to develop my ear. Be prepared to fall flat on your face for a month or two, but it does grow...the ear that is, just like the callouses on your fingers. You can develop a great ear using this app. I also think that the whole concept of ear training being confined to interval recognition and chord recognition is too limited. Counting beats, feel of styles, the ability to discern an instrument in a mix, all have to be learnt too. I class this as ear training too IMO Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 01/18/15 03:20 AM.
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Yes - downloaded Earmaster Pro over a year ago, and it is sitting there laughing at me. I will try to wipe the smile off its little face by allowing your reminder and encouragement to open it up and start using it. My problem is I 'buy' the things I want to eventually use, while taking years to use them. It should really be the other way around, but I've got this American disease of wanting 'things' I like regardless of if I have an immediate need for them - or maybe there is a better way to describe the condition. (don't be disrespectful on opening I've provided - you know who you are).
Double-Zero, my music teacher and I just had an incredibly passionate discussion about just how much one needs to memorize the things you mention in order to be a good player - and his point was that I'm over-memorizing some things (included in your list) that are overkill and actually counterproductive to your goal, given other things you could be practicing instead. Yours are great goals, but if every player put themselves through such rigor - they may not have become the good players they are. The hard part of getting good at something is learning from the 'greats' at what point you are spinning your wheels with respect to your goal - and this is usually something you don't know you "dont' know". Many of the people that insist you must know these things inside out and consciously are not themselves half the players that actually CAN'T do the things you mention.
Just my two dollars and two cents for the point I'm at in my music learning - yet I still idealize being able to do the things you've mentioned.
Last edited by Joe V; 01/18/15 03:28 AM.
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Yes - downloaded Earmaster Pro over a year ago, and it is sitting there laughing at me. I will try to wipe the smile off its little face by allowing your reminder and encouragement to open it up and start using it. My problem is I 'buy' the things I want to eventually use, while taking years to use them. It should really be the other way around, but I've got this American disease of wanting 'things' I like regardless of if I have an immediate need for them - or maybe there is a better way to describe the condition. (don't be disrespectful on opening I've provided - you know who you are).
Double-Zero, my music teacher and I just had an incredibly passionate discussion about just how much one needs to memorize the things you mention in order to be a good player - and his point was that I'm over-memorizing some things (included in your list) that are overkill and actually counterproductive to your goal, given other things you could be practicing instead. Yours are great goals, but if every player put themselves through such rigor - they may not have become the good players they are. The hard part of getting good at something is learning from the 'greats' at what point you are spinning your wheels with respect to your goal - and this is usually something you don't know you "dont' know". Many of the people that insist you must know these things inside out and consciously are not themselves half the players that actually CAN'T do the things you mention.
Good luck with Earmaster, ten minutes a day with no results for at least a month, was my start. My aim is different to many, I consciously intend to make all 12 notes available, in all keys, at all times. I am currently about two thirds there IMO. I am not really interested in playing like the 'greats', not that these studies are not absolutely legit. I do have a teacher, do learn some jazz standards, though. At present I am focussing whole on technique, but that's ok for now, for me.
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Good luck with Earmaster, ten minutes a day with no results for at least a month, was my start.
My aim is different to many, I consciously intend to make all 12 notes available, in all keys, at all times. I am currently about two thirds there IMO. I am not really interested in playing like the 'greats', not that these studies are not absolutely legit. I do have a teacher, do learn some jazz standards, though. At present I am focussing whole on technique, but that's ok for now, for me.
Just curious Zero, my ultimate aim is to actually be able to more easily play with others, learn new tunes, and accelerate the rate at which it takes me to learn new tunes and improvise. I've thought that doing exactly what you stated would get me there - but for me this became an end in itself to the neglect of enjoying music and playing songs - sort of like losing the forest... Is yours and end goal in itself, simply for the matter of the pure pleasure of saying "I can do this"...or is it a means to an end more similar to those I've created ? Just curious at what motivates different people to spend long hours practicing monotonous music studies.
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My aim is similar to yours. I took up piano late after playing saxand other instruments.
I once asked my sax teacher what chords to learn first, he just said 'them all, your going to need them all'.
When you think about it, if yo were teaching a math student multiplication tables and they asked the same question, the answer would be the same.
I had a bass player visit my studio the other day, a pro. He got out the Real Book sight read a few songs, first recording a bass part, then recorded a harmony track (all on the bass!) then a melody track - using bass again (upper register). He did this without even thinking about it, without making errors and without breaking a sweat.
Playing with bands (on sax) I remember being laughed at for asking the key (with good players) I was expected to hear it and jump in. Baptism by fire, I know, and there are other bands that would not do this.
The key to all this is to keep it simple, learn something within your grasp, but something you can use as a building block in a methodical way. Always play with feel and accuracy - this is where BIAB is so useful. I use it three to eight hours a day, I want to achieve freedom on the piano, I am in my seventh year. I do play tunes, I memorise them all. This hampers my sight reading for the piano, but I dont really need this except for Real Book level. I find that it also pays to work on a tune down to its very core, not only the straight melody as played, but also lots of variations based on theory. I learn a lot this way.
When I was young I played trumpet and cornet. I used to sight read everything and I got really fast at it. I remember doing all of the Beethoven Symphonies and lots of the competition pieces for Brass bands, however I could not play a note without a sheet of paper. I always wanted to play freely, from the heart, without barriers. None of my Band members (well respected players - some of them world cornet champions brass band style) could improvise. Its a different culture, the classical training, I believe it robs the player of creativity.
On sax, my reading is mediocre (and jazz is harder to read than classical because of syncopation) but my impro skills are fine now. I play hundreds of standards.
Z
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Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!
Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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