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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824
Expert
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OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824 |
An interesting question came up that caused me to investigate the effect of putting either anticipation or delay entries in the "Tick Offset" box in the "Notation Window Options".
The BIAB note about this feature says that it "Allows you to display the notes ahead or behind the actual location of the notes.
For example, the notation of jazz swing is often improved by an offset setting of about -5 because jazz music is typically played a little after the beat.”
I do not know that I agree with that statement about 'swing' being improved by "playing a little after the beat" because my school of teaching says that "pushing the beat feels not only natural but correct in jazz". Also I have always found and been taught that for rhythm you can achieve maximum swing by having the bass pushing and the drums dead set in the middle of the beat. And frankly that is what I hear from the really good jazz groups. The exceptions to this might be the Basie band where tunes like "Lil' Darling have the sections playing behind the beat. But I don't hear the rhythm section doing the same thing. The rhythm section in the Basie band is usually dead-set in the centre of the beat.
And that requirement of having only one or some instrument pushing or delaying is where I now have some questions. This is not the first time we have talked about this 'anticipation and delay' thing on this forum and I swear the advice I was given at the time said it was possible to set up a different degree of push for different instruments. I have not experimented with this for a long time because I have never had a big problem with 'swing' since RealTracks were introduced. However, I find that you now cannot have different settings for Base, Piano, Drums, Guitar, Strings, Melody & Soloist as far as Tick Offset is concerned. If you put an entry in 'Notation Windows Options' for Bass it carries through into the other instrument Windows.
So, am I dreaming about thinking you could once do this? I really think it was/is a good feature! I even have a setting of '5' marked for the Bass in my typical options entries folder that I have been keeping since I first had BIAB.
Is it possible that you can achieve the same single instrument, or group of instruments, anticipation or delay alteration somewhere else in the BIAB settings?
I am also puzzled by the “Auto Set Tick Offset” box which says, “If enabled, Band-in-a-Box will automatically determine the tick offset by analysing the notes on the track.” I would ask which track? And what criteria does it use to make these decisions?
I am aware that you can also push chords by 1/8 and 1/16 but I do not think this feature gives the fine degree of control for which I was looking.
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824
Expert
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OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824 |
I 'bumped' this topic because no one commented and I really do want to know the answer to some questions, even if you do not agree with my idea of how push affects swing.
Q1. Using the 'Notation Windows Options', notation setting 'Tick Offset', is it possible to have only one or some instrument pushing or delaying? For instance I would like to set the Bass to play say '5' in front (anticipate) of the beat. But no other instruments.
I thought at one time I was able to do that but, if you apply that setting in the Bass notation setting, it now carries through into all the other instruments. Maybe I am wrong but I was sure somebody once gave me that advice. Certainly there are other settings which can be different in the Notation Windows Options, but not the Tick Offset.
Q2. Regarding the “Auto Set Tick Offset” (Under the Tick Offset), which says, “If enabled, Band-in-a-Box will automatically determine the tick offset by analysing the notes on the track.” The use of singular 'track' seems to confirm my original thoughts in Q1 about the function but I think we are really talking tracks? So importantly, what criteria does it use to make these decisions?
Q3. Do these offset settings apply to RealTracks as well as midi?
Or perhaps you could refer me to a section in the user manual or frequently asked question, because I have been unable to find out anything about these functions. I am probably looking in the wrong place or using an incorrect search term.
Thanks.
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,645
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,645 |
Hi Graham, Here's my take on some of your questions. I'm not absolutely certain of all my answers and am more than happy to be corrected. Q1. Using the 'Notation Windows Options', notation setting 'Tick Offset', is it possible to have only one or some instrument pushing or delaying? For instance I would like to set the Bass to play say '5' in front (anticipate) of the beat. But no other instruments. If you right-click on a track, there is an option that will allow you to set an off-set for that individual track. Whether this is for midi or midi and Realtracks, I do not know. I'm sure that if you experiment a little, it will be easy to find out.  Q2. Regarding the “Auto Set Tick Offset” (Under the Tick Offset), which says, “If enabled, Band-in-a-Box will automatically determine the tick offset by analysing the notes on the track.” The use of singular 'track' seems to confirm my original thoughts in Q1 about the function but I think we are really talking tracks? So importantly, what criteria does it use to make these decisions? As far as I'm aware, because "Auto-set tick off-set" is located under the notation options, I have always assumed (rightly or wrong) that it only applies to what is notated. To me, this suggests that it's for midi only. I know it occurs on the Melody track because I have often had to adjust notes that were entered when tick off-set was active. Whether or not it happens to the other tracks, I haven't investigated. Q3. Do these offset settings apply to RealTracks as well as midi? See Q1 answer above. Hope these thoughts help, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,944
PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,944 |
In addition to what Noel said,
The setting (tick offset) in the Notation window options is only a visual setting. The idea behind it is that musicians don't typically play right on the beat, even though it sounds that way. If you listen to a MIDI composition that has all the notes exactly on the beat, it doesn't sound 'human', and that is part of the reason. Depending on the style and instrument musicians may play slightly ahead or behind the beat (by milliseconds). If the notation window was interpreting everything that was played literally, it might make for some messy notation. The setting applies to any track with notation, but is typically relevant for the soloist and melody.
The track "right-click" setting that Noel pointed out in fact is a per-track audio setting that doesn't affect the notation. In addition, the setting can be made in the style itself (Stylemaker - misc - more..) We can adjust the setting based on the instrument and feel of the style.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824
Expert
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OP
Expert
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824 |
Thank guys. I understand that difference and will now see what my ideas of push produce.
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,645
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,645 |
Thanks, Andrew. I appreciate the extra insight you've given me.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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