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The master effects are post fader which seems wrong to me.
Adjusting this fader seems to have the same affect as the adjust all volume fader.
The individual tracks have the effects pre fader which is what I would expect.
Is this a bug or am I missing something?
Ron
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Each audio track has an "FX" button. These are inserts and are pre fader. The master has "FX" buttons that are also inserts and are pre fader. Each track also has an "AUX SEND" that is post fader. Above the Master faders are the 8 Master AUX busses were the effects are used.
This is standard console convention except that on a real console "AUX SENDS" can ussually be set to either pre or post fader. If your using an "AUXSEND" for monitors it has to be pre fader.
Inserts are typically used for DYNAMIC EFFECTS like compressors were "AUX SENDS" are used for reverb.
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Thanks for the reply
As I said in my original post, the Master FX is NOT pre fader as you suggest.
Is ther an option that I have switched off?
Thanks
Ron
Line 6 Guitar Port Gear Box POD Farm Pedal Steel Guitar My Music
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Ron
I think we have a terminology problem.
There are 3 spots were effects can be entered that have the "FX" button
1. Above each track- this is a prefade track insert
2. above each master output - this is a prefade master insert
3. the 8 outs above the master - these are post fader aux send/returns and are affected by the aux send 1-4 on each track as well as the send return level of the buss.
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I agree with the terminology
Your number 2 is the inserts I'm referring to.
These inserts are NOT pre fader using either the fader right below FX
or The adjust all fader.
Line 6 Guitar Port Gear Box POD Farm Pedal Steel Guitar My Music
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Now actually my terminology was a little off here.
#2 are not masters but sub-groups
All = master.
The effects seem to be aplied post the all fader as well.
I used 2 separate outs and installed a peak limit in G1 & G2 sub group. The sub group fader affects the drive level individually to each installed effect. The ALL slider affects the drive level to both effects in G1 & G2.
"tis a little weird.
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Thanks for your reply,
That is the same results I got and called PG support and they came to same conclusion.
They seem to think this is normal. If this is so it would be nice to have an option.
I use another sequencer and it's master effects are pre fader.
If you find out anything more let me know.
Thanks again
Ron
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In the real world, hardware consoles, Master inserts are always prefader otherwise they'd be the main output jacks! In Sonar they are pre fader . In Adobe Audition they are default pre fader but can be set post fader.
I hate to say it but RB is not right. I never checked just assumed.
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That's what I always thought. I was trying to get a similar sound with Real Band as I got with n-Tracks (Master effects pre fader) and was never satified with the comparison. I started looking for differences and plugged an insert I could monitor into the master output and discovered the default setting of post fader. I was able to duplicate the sound by mixing down a song to a WAV file, bring it back up add effects to the track FX, render to new WAV file, bring it back, insert effects in the track FX and render final version. (Interesting but a waste of time)
I stared this thread in the hopes there was an option that I was not familiar with that would change this. So I guess I'll continue to use n-Tracks as my final mix down.
By the way the fellow at support seemed not to grasp the significance of this so it might be worth pursuing. Wish List?
Ron
Line 6 Guitar Port Gear Box POD Farm Pedal Steel Guitar My Music
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I emailed Peter & Andrew directly about this.
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Great
I placed in the wish list.
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What kind of FX are you using on a final output that you would need to control the input to with a fader? Don't those effects have an input level adjustment?
If not, just put something like PGPeakLimit in front of it and use the output of that to adjust the signal going to the next effect..
There are ways to adjust the signal going into the final output other than the final slider..
..so I wonder in what situation this would be a critical issue..
curiosity is all.
Final output slider is always at 100% here and needed adjustments are made elsewhere.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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The situation is not controlling the input to the effect. The object is to not change the effect with the output fader.
If you have a way of doing this I would appreciate your input.
Ron
Line 6 Guitar Port Gear Box POD Farm Pedal Steel Guitar My Music
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A simple Master Limiter plugin after the effect(s) needed would compensate. Use the Fader to control the input into the final chain of effects (which on my system is always at full up), and use something like PGPeakLimit (last in the chain) to control the actual final output. Of course other tools will give more accurate results for measuring levels in different ways than PGPeakLimit, but it would be servicable to some extent, especially if you comparing by ear to other recording software.
This may be a feature for mastering. I can put my mastering effects in the final output slots and trust that what comes out of them is what I am getting for a digital mixdown, it's not altered through another slider afterwards..when levels count. How would you measure a signal after the final slider then? Just your soundcard mixer VU's? Or another standalone?
I kinda like the idea for some applications.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Bob,
If you put any effect that has a meter in the master effects insert and move the fader the signal to that effect changes. It should not. It's an insert.
Now in live sound your drive rack ( EQ, compressor etc. ) do come after the master faders so in some instances the way RB is wired is OK. It's just not what other programs do. Nor is it wired as an insert should be. Sonar has this insert before the master fader. Audition gives you a choice . The idea is to be able to move the fader without having the drive level to the inserted effect change. It's not a big deal to me however it's not conventional.
Another way to look at it also, and this may be PG's view, is that the Master is really the control on your soundcard.
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Ron here's how you can do this.
In pref. make sure the box use unused outputs as sub groups is checked.
Assign your tracks to sub groups and put you effects into the subgroup.They will be labeled "G"
Now when you move the fader with the "A" the effects drive level stays the same. It's still unconventional but may help out. If you move the fader for the subgroup it still affects the effects.
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Thanks,
That works. It is what I've been use to.
Ron
Last edited by RioRicoRon; 07/09/09 04:22 PM.
Line 6 Guitar Port Gear Box POD Farm Pedal Steel Guitar My Music
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Quote:
Bob,
If you put any effect that has a meter in the master effects insert and move the fader the signal to that effect changes. It should not. It's an insert.
Now in live sound your drive rack ( EQ, compressor etc. ) do come after the master faders so in some instances the way RB is wired is OK. It's just not what other programs do. Nor is it wired as an insert should be. Sonar has this insert before the master fader. Audition gives you a choice . The idea is to be able to move the fader without having the drive level to the inserted effect change. It's not a big deal to me however it's not conventional.
Another way to look at it also, and this may be PG's view, is that the Master is really the control on your soundcard.
I guess you don't understand my mastering explanation above.
I have invested a bit of $$ in plugins for mastering. Some are specific meter functions, measuring the P/A and RMS accurately (I assume).
Why would I want my signal going thru one last fader to mess up those carefully set levels?
When you say PGMusic is considering the soundcard the 'master', it's like saying the volume on the amp is the master, or the volume knob for powered monitors.
What I am talking about here is the digital signal that is getting written at merge down. That is all we should be concerned with. The actual listening volume should be controlled elsewhere. Two different things, man..
If you understand that what comes out of that final output FX is the signal that gets written to the stereo wav file, I don't see why you would want to run it thru one last fader..after any chance to measure the real effect has passed.
We are not talking about a live mixer you adjust by ear to the room, it is a recording mixer with accurate monitoring capabilities, as it is now.
As for how to control the output volume without affecting the input to the FX chain, I still think putting PGPeakLimit in the last FX slot would be the simplest way (or just turning your speaker volume down), if you did want to control the output volume for some reason. But remember it is affecting what you are writing to file..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I'm trying to turn over a new leaf and not argue.
The soundcard recording control is indeed a part of the chain and is not synonymous with the controls on a power amp. The wav out controls are.
That being said the bottom line here is ,and that was Ron's question, Inserts are always pre fader or preferably switchable. Effects in the tracks pre fade, effects in the sub groups pre fade and because this is not a hardware mixer it is indeed nice to be able to but things in the master chain post fade like my drive rack.
The end.
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Not trying to argue, thought you really didn't understand why it was set up as it is ; I do believe it was by design. Jeff is pretty smart that way. As for the soundcard controls, they do not affect the 'write' process when mixing down, that is why I made that comparison; they are only 'outside' volume controls. We were only discussing the outputs, not recroding.. luv ya man  thanx for staying cool..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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