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I have become a little hooked on these NPR Tiny desktop concerts that Floyd told us about a couple of days ago. They are a great way to discover new music. I was taken by this video of Sylvan Esso: NPR Music Tiny Desk Concert and wonder how many people would still doubt the musicianship of live DJs after watching this. What are your thoughts?
Last edited by JosieC; 04/13/15 08:18 AM.
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I'm more inclined to call him a technician. He's creating something, but he is essentially mixing loops.
Keith
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Josie, I have long said that the term "DJ" has become ambiguous. Many, if not most, associate it with spinning discs of dance music, and a lot of people still do that. No one would argue that this constitutes musicianship.
However, the term has morphed to include people who use programs such as Ableton Live and Propellerhead Reason to generate music on the fly. Frank Zappa borrowed the definition of music as being "organized sound" from a twentieth-century classical composer. I staunchly assert that what *these* DJs produce *is* music, and that they are, by definition, musicians.
I back this up with my signature line, which states that "my primary musical instrument is the personal computer." Of course, I play guitar, bass, and other instruments, but what I produce would not be possible without the use of adjunct programs and the PC itself—used in a musical fashion.
The logical next step in that parade is Mr. Don Gaynor, who cannot play an instrument, yet generates some exceptional tuneage. Does anyone care to argue that he is *not* a musician?
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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If that guy is a musician, I am a potato. 
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If the term musical instrument in contemporary terms has now been accepted/redefined include a personal computer or a turntable(s)...I guess so. In my irrelevant opinion....no....they are not what I would define as a musician. Live venue mixers, entertainers who are very good at what they do even though I'm not interested in the genre(?). Maybe a derivative composer. Personally speaking only, I do not consider my DAW or any program as a musical instrument. I consider each as tools from which (in my case) I can be a composer of original music/songs. A musician performs said recorded tracks. That's my take on it...
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 04/14/15 10:14 AM.
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Keith - I think the most interesting thing is what he is able to do "on the fly". (Even if it is with hours of practice. I am not sure how much "ad libbing" there is here). Most people that are using loops record them live and then mix them in as they play. Which is (in my opinion) a little boring while they are doing it. I don't think that is what he is doing here and this performance is anything but boring.
Hi Ryszard. I agree 100% with what you say (and Donald Gaynor is a good example). Thank you PG Music for giving us all this opportunity to make music (even those of us who play a musical instrument, but play it badly!)
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If that guy is a musician, I am a potato. ha ha.. bring on the popcorn!
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Well, considering potatoes are buried in the dirt, can't see anything beyond what they're directly on top of. But then consider trees who stand tall and have great vision...
Maybe that's an apt description of yourself, don't know <grin>
Bob
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There are some interesting prejudices being revealed here, of which I am certain those who hold them are completely unaware. Let me begin with an example from outside our community.
The most common reaction I get from musicians to whom I demonstrate BIAB is essentially, "That's cheating!" (This, in one case, from a man who still does step programming in the sequencer of his DAW.) It is similar to the response I have gotten when I mention the songwriting aid MasterWriter here. "That ain't how Gramps did it!"
THEY'RE ALL TOOLS, PEOPLE! But tools change, and the early adopters are often castigated for it. It happened to J. S. Bach, it happened to Stravinsky, and I am sure students of music history can name many others. Nearly everyone here is involved in computer-aided composition and arranging—that's what BIAB, RB, and PTPA are for. So I find it more than passing strange that anyone here would criticize others who do the same thing, but with different tools.
At some point these discussions usually arrive at the definition of music. Okay, here's a fact about me. I listen to ambient, experimental, and New Age stuff that I'm sure some of you would have trouble accepting as being music at all. There is often no discernible beat and no melody. But because I accept Zappa's borrowed definition of music as organized sound I have no problem with that.
Which brings me back to youse guys. Being the otherwise forward-thinking individuals that you are, I am always surprised when there is such vehement resistance to this idea. Just to be clear, when I say "DJ" in this context, I am NOT talking about turntablists (yes, it's a word). I am instead referring to someone who uses electronics, software, and occasionally keyboards (usually to trigger samples) to produce music/organized sound that did not exist before the performance. There is no question that it is music. Musical Improvisation is impromptu composition; ergo, the performer is a composer. And where does music come from? Instruments, right? Which leads to the inescapable (to me) conclusion that whatever was used to compose and perform that music, be it BIAB, Ableton, Reason together with a OC or Mac, is, again by definition, an instrument. Q.E.D.
You can't talk me out of it. I just wish some of you (not all, of course) could relax enough to accept nontraditional musicians and instruments.
Last edited by Ryszard; 04/13/15 06:34 PM.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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THEY'RE ALL TOOLS, PEOPLE! I agree completely! DJ's are all TOOLS!  They aren't musicians. They're just taking jobs from musicians because the general public is too ignorant to know the difference and the club owners won't pay a living wage for real musicians. I thought we'd settled this topic several times before.
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Here is an example of musicians actually playing music; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxqMRkXD4usTo call DJ’s, (aka glorified button pushers), musicians is an insult to people like those in the video.
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dang automobiles...took all the jobs away from the blacksmiths and buggy makers! and the people are too dang ignorant to realize how much better horse and buggy are...oh, and Get Off My Lawn!
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Being the otherwise forward-thinking individuals that you are Ha! I ain't buying that! I am always surprised when there is such vehement resistance to this idea. It tickles the crap outta me every time topics like this come up! And I am 100% in agreement with you!
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Hi All. Sorry to bring up an old beaten to death topic but I was really interested to hear if anybody "modified" their point of view as a result of watching this particular video (or others like this).
I must say that I found this video found far more engaging than watching some girl crooning out bad songs with a ukulele or a guy sitting endlessly building loops with his guitar (but then again maybe that is just me).
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Well, considering potatoes are buried in the dirt, can't see anything beyond what they're directly on top of. But then consider trees who stand tall and have great vision...
Maybe that's an apt description of yourself, don't know <grin>
Bob What an astute observation, Bob. Once again, you prove the old adage about opinions.
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They aren't musicians. They're just taking jobs from musicians because the general public is too ignorant to know the difference and the club owners won't pay a living wage for real musicians.
You'd be surprised about the wages some of those DJs earn. They often get more than a five piece band.
Last edited by GHinCH; 04/14/15 01:55 AM.
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I think she swiped those shoes from Bootsy Collins....
In other news.....
A buddy of mine used to DJ for a time. He made more as a DJ than he did as a band.....
In fact, I too did some primitive DJ stuff in my day..... I mixed acoustic sets with spinning some record cuts....and made more doing that than I did in a band. Less gear too.
Is a DJ a musician....? Some probably are, especially the creative ones....... some, probably are not.
What defines a musician anyway? I think maybe.....The ability to coax sounds from inanimate objects? Wood and steel..... cow hides stretched on a ring of wood.... slats of ivory and ebony with mechanical linkages that strike steel strings...... or plastic buttons connected to silicon chips......
What about typing letters into a grid and selecting a style and pressing "play"? Does that qualify one as a musician?
Getting into slippery ground here...... before calling the kettle something or other......hummmmmm
As was pointed out... these things are simply tools....inanimate objects.... it takes the creative mind of the musician to realize the music that hides within each object or tool.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 04/14/15 02:32 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I'm more inclined to call him a technician. He's creating something, but he is essentially mixing loops. But, isn't that the same thing most musicians do in a similar way? Why is it that one can recognize the playing of a Les Paul, or a Sonny Rollins, or an Alvin Lee, or the drumming of a Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa? All of those have their licks and chops that they match and mix in different songs or tunes. They just play it note by note. Remember the original guitar solo in Bill Haley's version of Rock Around the Clock played by Danny Cedrone? Do you think this was an original? Well it was an original by Danny Cedrone, but not original when played in Rock Around the Clock in 1954. Here's the original: Rock the Joint from 1951, in the pre-Comets era when the band was still named The Saddlemen, even though the record was published after the name change. Even accomplished musicians rely on "pre-made" sequences. Don't get me wrong. I play myself, but I also rely on prefabricated loops and tracks to enhance my playing's impression for the listener.
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Transport yourself into the deepest rain forest. A guy carries a wooden stick, finds a fallen tree that's hollow and starts banging it with that wooden stick in a repeating pattern. Others hear that and start moving uncontrollably (something we now call dancing).
Is that guy, banging on the hollow tree a musician? Those who are dancing to the 'banging' would think so.
Think about it. Whatever tool you use to make others excited enough to make them move (dance), you have created something we call music.
Just adding my nickel's worth to the discussion.
Cheers, Mike My Music * Asus ROG Strix G15CF 32 GB DDR4 4TB HDD + 1 TB SSD NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 8GB Win 11 AKAI EIE PRO Sound Interface. BIAB/RB 2024 UltraPak Build - Latest
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If one is just spinning CDs/records then no a DJ is not a musician. If one is creating new music then yes a DJ is a musician. If a DJ is creating new music using samples, loops etc then he is no different then us using BiaB's MIDI, RTs, RDs, loops and samples IMO. I know a couple of disc spinner DJs who are also keyboard players. They can make more money spinning discs than playing in bands, unfortunately.
At some point these discussions usually arrive at the definition of music. Okay, here's a fact about me. I listen to ambient, experimental, and New Age stuff that I'm sure some of you would have trouble accepting as being music at all. There is often no discernible beat and no melody. But because I accept Zappa's borrowed definition of music as organized sound I have no problem with that.
You are not the only one. I have been listening to the same genre's for years. In fact I have a lot of it on vinyl!
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
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