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“In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators ( just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before.” Richard - If you believe that "playing" this:  Is the same thing as playing this:  I have to disagree. No offense, but we just have different views on the subject. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. In an era where texting passes for conversation, I also realize that I am in the minority.  Regards, Bob Bob, a piano or synthesizer keyboard is not an instrument, either; it is an interface. The Novation LaunchPad is an interface for the Ableton Live DAW and performance program, which I DO consider an instrument. Why? Because people make music with it. R. Thanks for clarifying that for me Professor. As for what you “consider an instrument”......you can call a duck a chicken all you want, but it doesn't make it so, and the duck is sure to resent it. Regards, B
Last edited by 90 dB; 04/14/15 10:27 AM. Reason: Stupidity
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My goodness, I have sort of stay out of this battle up to this point. I feel music, just like beauty, is in the ear/eye of the beholder. To sit an argue over it seems a bit crazy to me. For me, music is expression. It's emotion via sound. I really don't care how it is created. If someone expresses themselves in a creative way, and they want to call it music, good for them. I may not like it, but I do like that they do! If that creation is heard by someone else who also enjoys it, and it moves them, good for them. Mission accomplished in my book. We use different processes to achieve this. To look at a guitar and think it is a natural instrument is strange to me. It's a traditional instrument, but it's not like the guitar just happens in nature. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. I don't know that anyone was. I don't think you could compare most guitarists to him either. What this guys appearance has to do with it, I'll never know. Again, could apply to many guitarists as well...or any other "musician." An instrumentalist is someone who plays an instrument. In my book, a musician is someone who makes music/a song.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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As for what you “consider an instrument”......you can call a duck a chicken all you want, but it doesn't make it so, and the duck is sure to resent it. Very true, and calling a piano a guitar, doesn't make it a guitar. But they are BOTH instruments. Just as a duck and chicken are both birds. Perhaps I'm a little jaded on the whole "what is a musician" subject because I am a drummer. LOL
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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it takes the creative mind of the musician to realize the music that hides within each object or tool. Great line! That is exactly what the good DJ's do. They "hear" the music hidden within all their tools and bring it forth for the audience. Thief that I am, I'm going to use that somewhere in the future. Bob
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Just because I like to sit back and eat popcorn.  Is your voice an instrument?
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Is your voice an instrument? Mine? No!  Others, of course! I feel voice is one of the purest of instruments. Most others are extensions of expression.
Last edited by HearToLearn; 04/14/15 01:14 PM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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My goodness, I have sort of stay out of this battle up to this point. I feel music, just like beauty, is in the ear/eye of the beholder. To sit an argue over it seems a bit crazy to me. For me, music is expression. It's emotion via sound. I really don't care how it is created. If someone expresses themselves in a creative way, and they want to call it music, good for them. I may not like it, but I do like that they do! If that creation is heard by someone else who also enjoys it, and it moves them, good for them. Mission accomplished in my book. We use different processes to achieve this. To look at a guitar and think it is a natural instrument is strange to me. It's a traditional instrument, but it's not like the guitar just happens in nature. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. I don't know that anyone was. I don't think you could compare most guitarists to him either. What this guys appearance has to do with it, I'll never know. Again, could apply to many guitarists as well...or any other "musician." An instrumentalist is someone who plays an instrument. In my book, a musician is someone who makes music/a song. +1000
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This thread is a pattern in and of itself. 1. The 'taking jobs' element is in there, repeats every 6 month or so on the forum, some saying yes, some saying no. 2. The argument about what constitutes a musician with the common threads of can/cannot read music, plays a real/not real instrument, composes or doesn't compose, etc. 3. Style elements 4. It is missing the element of whether or not a singer is a musician or not. C'mon all of you who say no, you need to weigh in here. The question is actually - does it really matter what anyone says as to who is a musician and who is not? If someone says those who are called DJs these days says they are musicians, what does it really matter? Perhaps it's an identity matter? My sister is a straight-up studio singer and she recently did another gig this past week with the Anderson, IN symphony orchestra as a soloist. SHE says that she's not a real 'musician' because she has never composed or improvised. She can sing the socks off of anyone who has ever posted a song on this forum; in just about any style from coloratura soprano opera to R&B, to C&W, to pop, to jazz. That's just the facts. Google Heather Bays music to listen. But she says that I'm more 'musical' than she is, and I'm a hack, but I have written about a hundred songs, taught myself to play many instruments, etc. But I can't read music very well. I'm learning one of Chopin's simple preludes (I thin it's Opus 28 #4), but I'm struggling with it. Who cares? It's a beautiful song. I also enjoy listening to the songs my kids love from the modern dubstep DJs. They are about the only crowd that are doing interesting stuff with synthesis/electronic music these days that has a public acceptance. Being a fan of synths since some of good stuff of the early 70's, it's refreshing to see/hear that the world of synthesizers and electronic music is not dead. Just bought my 14 year old an Akai XR-20, which is basically an MPC pre-loaded with sounds. He's into rap (clean, non-misogynistic stuff) and he is learning how to program drum patterns and lay in bass-lines. All from pads arranged in a non-keyboard fashion. He showed interest, and it's something for him to do besides baseball (on the JV team). He's also taking guitar lessons. Do I consider his beat making any less important than learning guitar? No. He also plays clarinet. Hasn't blown the clarinet in 3 years, took it off the shelf a couple weeks ago and he could play many of the tunes that he played while being the only 6th grader invited from his school to play in the Colorado Springs-wide middle school honor band. I'm not going to force him to play, because he enjoys it at will. If he enjoys making sounds creatively, I'm not going to stop him. He may someday invest in one of those Ableton controllers. I remember back on this forum when the video of the Rick K. and the Allnighters drummer caused a stir as to whether he was a musician or not. Musician or not, he is the reason the Allnighters have a solid tour schedule. http://www.rickkandtheallnighters.com/tour/ all these years later. If any of us have any 'rights' to declare who is and who is not a real musician, it's only because our own identity feels threatened when someone we consider less skilled or qualified gets tagged with the same label we have built our identity upon and so feel devalued as a result. Now, press repeat......
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If any of us have any 'rights' to declare who is and who is not a real musician, it's only because our own identity feels threatened when someone we consider less skilled or qualified gets tagged with the same label we have built our identity upon and so feel devalued as a result.
My thoughts exactly! And that's REALLY great to hear about your son. Kudos to you for letting him find his way.
Last edited by HearToLearn; 04/14/15 03:55 PM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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I thought I would express myself one more time in direct reference to the video.
The music is not something I really care for. I don't hate it, but it's not my thing.
That being said, at 9m 45s something really cool happens. Both artists are smiling and the crowd is happily applauding. I'm not saying that has to be your goal, but it looks and sounds like they have accomplished theirs. It was the performance of their music that made that reaction happen. I'm not going to fault them because they didn't string wires across wood, or the equivalent, to do it.
For me it's not what they used to move people, it's that they moved them!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Related to the original post in this thread. I STRONGLY desire the Teenage Engineering OP-1 synth that this guy has in his kit - it's the white-ish Casio VL-Tone looking thing.
For you synthesizer geeks, go have a look at youtube videos of the OP-1. You're welcome.
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This is a crazy topic. There shouldn't be any arguments. A pianist, cellist, trombonist, etc., is a musician. A DJ/Mixologist is a DJ/Mixologist. A singer is a singer. A drummer is a drummer LOL!!
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This is a crazy topic. There shouldn't be any arguments. A pianist, cellist, trombonist, etc., is a musician. A DJ/Mixologist is a DJ/Mixologist. A singer is a singer. A drummer is a drummer LOL!! Wise words Ray. Every time this topic comes up, the same folks suggest that the people who refuse to call a DJ/Mixologist a musician must have an ulterior motive for their position. It's kind of like having a bowl of rigatoni with tomato sauce sitting in front of you and someone walks into the room and tells you that you're eating spaghetti. After all, the end result is the same in your belly. When you point out that it's not spaghetti, they suggest that you must have a hidden agenda for resisting their mischaracterization of your Italian treat. Maybe they're the ones with an ulterior motive. 
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It's kind of like having a bowl of rigatoni with tomato sauce sitting in front of you and someone walks into the room and tells you that you're eating spaghetti. After all, the end result is the same in your belly. Actually, to me, it's more like you are having a bowl of rigatoni with tomato sauce and someone comes in and says your not eating Italian. You asked them why and their response is "Because it's not spaghetti. ONLY spaghetti is real Italian." You see, "Italian" and "Musician" are broad terms. "Rigatoni", "Spaghetti", "Guitarist", "Mixologist" are more specific. "DJ" is somewhat broad. I believe some DJ's are musicians. Some are not...example someone who talks on air at a radio station. The determining factor for me is, do they make music. There shouldn't be any arguments. A pianist, cellist, trombonist, etc., is a musician. A DJ/Mixologist is a DJ/Mixologist. A singer is a singer. A drummer is a drummer That makes no sense to me. By your logic, a singer is a singer, a drummer is a drummer...then a pianist is a pianist, a cellist is a cellist, a trombonist is a trombonist. I feel, they are all musicians. I'm sure I'm not changing any minds here, but so be it. I think, in general, it has more to do with people feeling superior to others. From my experience, it's always someone who considers themselves a musician that points out all of the other people they feel are not musicians. I would rather see people encouraged, which has a better chance of them learning MORE about music. From there, greatness can happen. I've heard there are two ways to have the tallest building in town. Build a taller building, or tear all the rest down.
Last edited by HearToLearn; 04/14/15 06:12 PM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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I think, in general, it has more to do with people feeling superior to others. From my experience, it's always someone who considers themselves a musician that points out all of the other people they feel are not musicians. The only people I “feel” are not musicians are people who are not musicians, and by the way, I don’t “feel” it. I use my brain instead of my feelings. I know it’s PC to make everyone “feel” good by lying to them, but it’s still a lie in the end. Correctly labeling the myriad forms of the arts isn’t a put down for anyone. It just more accurately describes what the artist is doing.
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Part of what separates the arts from the sciences is the subjectivity of art. It's not hard to get agreement in science... but in the arts its darn near impossible.
Definitions tend to be crafted by academics, who are usually highly influenced by the sciences... therefore, they typically use similar terminology to describe art. But art resists such rigid definition.
When something new happens, it takes a while before people notice, it takes longer before they understand and categorize it, and it takes even longer before academia formally defines it. Therefore, definitions tend to lag behind reality.
IMO, ten years from now fewer people will disagree that the guy in the video is a musician. But there may never be consensus... because art, by its nature, is subjective... we all perceive it differently and personally.
So which of the many different points of view get to be crowned as the "right" definition? It doesn't matter. Because as soon as you define art it changes into something different. Defining art empirically is like trying to make a map of where the bubbles are in a pot of boiling water.
Disclaimer: presented as my opinion, not as the one true definition
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What tickles me is that many of the folks who would swear the guy in the video is not a musician will get up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretend to be a band! 
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Josie,
IMHO . . . The young lady is a musician, the cat operating the the switches is a sound man.
Later, Ha Ha Danny. That is a good one... Gentleman (and Josie): If you accept the output from these people's apparati as music, then they are by definition musicians. If you don't, there is no basis for further discussion.
In my book, a musician is someone who makes music/a song.
I tend to agree Ryzard and HearToLearn Just because I like to sit back and eat popcorn. Is your voice an instrument? Interesting John. Especially now that you hear people are studying music at Berkley in "Voice". If any of us have any 'rights' to declare who is and who is not a real musician, it's only because our own identity feels threatened when someone we consider less skilled or qualified gets tagged with the same label we have built our identity upon and so feel devalued as a result.
Now, press repeat......
I think the snobbishness around who is and who is not a musician has put off (and put down) a lot of people. A couple of years ago I was too intimated to even walk into our local music shop. Even the other day I was in there looking for monitors and I was playing some of my BIAB music through their PA. The young guy who was helping me was very impressed and told me so a number of times. Then this older guy walks in and literally turns up his nose and walks out....Time to move on I think and change the way we think. Related to the original post in this thread. I STRONGLY desire the Teenage Engineering OP-1 synth that this guy has in his kit - it's the white-ish Casio VL-Tone looking thing.
For you synthesizer geeks, go have a look at youtube videos of the OP-1. You're welcome.
Ha ha Scott. YES! But I also STRONGLY desire the time to get to know how to play it! For me it's not what they used to move people, it's that they moved them! Plus one!
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What tickles me is that many of the folks who would swear the guy in the video is not a musician will get up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretend to be a band! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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