What cracks me up about this thread is I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest guy here yet there are some who act so OLD with their heads set in concrete. I told my girls years ago I'm NEVER going to be that guy.
Things change guys. Cultural values evolve, language evolves and especially musical values evolve. People do things different ways now. If you could resurrect a high brow Victorian and have them listen to what most of the people in this thread think is good music what do you think that person would say about that? Why, what kind of noise is this?? This is music??? Blasphemy. A Strat is an instrument?? A drum kit?? How about a synthetic electric violin? You kidding me? That would kill them all over again.
Someome please 'splain to me how this isn't an instrument:
I saw this at the NAMM show and even noodled around with it a bit. Pretty cool and whoever posted the pic of the Push earlier, do you realize you can play individual notes and chords with it just like any regular digital keyboard? Those pads are not just for triggering loops, they can be programmed to do lots of different things.
What cracks me up about this thread is I'm pretty sure I'm the oldest guy here yet there are some who act so OLD with their heads set in concrete. I told my girls years ago I'm NEVER going to be that guy.
Things change guys. Cultural values evolve, language evolves and especially musical values evolve. People do things different ways now. If you could resurrect a high brow Victorian and have them listen to what most of the people in this thread think is good music what do you think that person would say about that? Why, what kind of noise is this?? This is music??? Blasphemy. A Strat is an instrument?? A drum kit?? How about a synthetic electric violin? You kidding me? That would kill them all over again.
Someome please 'splain to me how this isn't an instrument:
I saw this at the NAMM show and even noodled around with it a bit. Pretty cool and whoever posted the pic of the Push earlier, do you realize you can play individual notes and chords with it just like any regular digital keyboard? Those pads are not just for triggering loops, they can be programmed to do lots of different things.
But would it still look like one if a DJ played it?
I haven't seen a whole lot of DJ/Mixologist's since I'm not a fan of the genre, but the ones I have seen or watched videos of weren't using an instrument to play melodies, harmonies, chords, arpeggios or leads.
They were triggering loops, samples, drum tracks, etc. They weren't "playing" anything. I wasn't able to get through more than a few minutes of the clip Josie posted because the music was so obnoxious, so forgive me if the guy pulled out an instrument like the Linnstrument and actually "played" a song later in the clip.
If a DJ/Mixologist triggers his backing tracks and then pulls out an instrument and plays melodies, harmonies, chords, arpeggios and leads over those backing tracks, then he/she is a Musician/DJ/Mixologist and will probably stay as busy as he/she wants to as a professional performer.
As John cubed so sarcastically called it, they'll enter the "tree house" of the musicians if they actually play an instrument during their performance. Even if it's an unconventional instrument like the Linnstrument.
But would it still look like one if a DJ played it?
I haven't seen a whole lot of DJ/Mixologist's since I'm not a fan of the genre, but the ones I have seen or watched videos of weren't using an instrument to play melodies, harmonies, chords, arpeggios or leads.
They were triggering loops, samples, drum tracks, etc. They weren't "playing" anything. I wasn't able to get through more than a few minutes of the clip Josie posted because the music was so obnoxious, so forgive me if the guy pulled out an instrument like the Linnstrument and actually "played" a song later in the clip.
If a DJ/Mixologist triggers his backing tracks and then pulls out an instrument and plays melodies, harmonies, chords, arpeggios and leads over those backing tracks, then he/she is a Musician/DJ/Mixologist and will probably stay as busy as he/she wants to as a professional performer.
As John cubed so sarcastically called it, they'll enter the "tree house" of the musicians if they actually play an instrument during their performance. Even if it's an unconventional instrument like the Linnstrument.
Bob, I give you a TON of credit! Please know there is no sarcasm in that either. I believe we all have those types of music we don't like. To give a shot at listening to something you know you don't like to expand you mind...awesome my friend.
And believe me I get it! I had a trip to Chicago once that we stopped in a jazz club. I like some forms of Jazz, but not all. There was a drummer playing...I assumed warming up. The reason I thought he was warming up was there was also a guy on keys playing as well. BOTH were playing in different styles, tempos...not AT ALL the same song. And it kept going! I asked someone when then were going to start, and I wasn't kidding. The guy next to me, who was really into it, said it was free form jazz. I know and appreciate jazz, and like a lot of it. He was telling me the goal of this was to both play as opposite of each other as possible without being influenced by the other. Nothing was supposed to go together! Interesting concept that sounded horrible to me. I'm sure not all free form jazz is like that, but wow!
Kudos my friend!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
Here is a small example of an original piece from a "DJ." Again, it's not something I would listen to, but I think the skill involved is up there with many other instruments. He is demonstrating more skill than I feel many who call themselves musicians have.
On a side note, I'm not sure if this was ever mentioned...
THE OPPOSING SIDE
I have a friend who does this kind of thing. When people come up to him and say "Hey, I hear you're a DJ." You can see him cringe. He says he doesn't want people thinking of what he does as a guy who pushes play on a CD player at a wedding! Ha!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
Here is a small example of an original piece from a "DJ." Again, it's not something I would listen to, but I think the skill involved is up there with many other instruments. He is demonstrating more skill than I feel many who call themselves musicians have.
On a side note, I'm not sure if this was ever mentioned...
THE OPPOSING SIDE
I have a friend who does this kind of thing. When people come up to him and say "Hey, I hear you're a DJ." You can see him cringe. He says he doesn't want people thinking of what he does as a guy who pushes play on a CD player at a wedding! Ha!
I equate what he is playing in his demo to the BIAB "musical" ability displayed in this video-
I see it that both the DJ playing his instrument and someone using this feature in BIAB can create music but cannot necessarily duplicate the same song again. In the same manner, any individual can also randomly pluck strings of a guitar, play random notes from a sax or trumpet creating music or musical notes but it is a musician who has the mastery to replicate melodies, harmonies and notes into a cohesive, repeatable duplicate composition called a song.
Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician.
<...snip...>
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Notes
You don't understand, Bob. After all, you're just someone who “gets up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretends to be a band!”
Rather odd criticism on a site devoted to creating backing tracks, no?
Regards,
Bob
I make my own backing tracks. More often than not, every part in our backing tracks was played into the computer in real time, like a studio musician. There are some parts I use BiaB for what I call the 'mule parts' - the comp parts that are time consuming to play in - that is (a) if the part is appropriate and (2) more than likely, I played that part live into BiaB in the first place.
In other words, I respectfully think it's you who doesn't understand
Along with the backing tracks I make I sing and play sax, wind synth, flute, and guitar. At home I also play bass, drums and keyboards. On stage with me Leilani sings, plays guitar and synth.
And to tell the truth, I'd rather play with a band, but the cheap club owners around here just don't pay enough for me to make my mortgage payments in a big band - that went belly-up in the 1980s.
And drummers are people who like to hang out with musicians - JUST JOKING. I played classical music, and every one of those drummers could (1) read drum music note-for note and (2) also played mallet percussion like marimba, celeste, etc.
My first instrument was drums in school band and yes, they teach you how to read drum music and also teach music theory.
For further comparisons.
The engineer in a recording studio makes music from clips the musicians recorded. So is the engineer a musician?
Is the person doing the mixing a musician?
So does the person who sets up a rhythm on a drum machine and raps over the top. Is that rapper a musician?
The person who downloads a web page template and fills in his/her information. Is that person a computer programmer?
The nurse who assists in the surgical theater, is he/she a doctor?
We have labels to define things. Ask 100 people on the street who are not in our business this, "What is a musician?", and not one of them is likely to say DJ. And it's best we keep it that way. That's the essence of communication.
I'm not dissing DJs by any stretch of the imagination. A good DJ is a very talented person who can do many things I cannot do. But he/she is not a musician any more than my neighbor's mutt is a wolf.
Calling DJs musicians just waters the language down.
Someone who does not play a musical instrument that is capable of playing any piece of written music is not a musician.
<...snip...>
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Notes
You don't understand, Bob. After all, you're just someone who “gets up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretends to be a band!”
Rather odd criticism on a site devoted to creating backing tracks, no?
Regards,
Bob
I make my own backing tracks. More often than not, every part in our backing tracks was played into the computer in real time, like a studio musician. There are some parts I use BiaB for what I call the 'mule parts' - the comp parts that are time consuming to play in - that is (a) if the part is appropriate and (2) more than likely, I played that part live into BiaB in the first place.
In other words, I respectfully think it's you who doesn't understand
Along with the backing tracks I make I sing and play sax, wind synth, flute, and guitar. At home I also play bass, drums and keyboards. On stage with me Leilani sings, plays guitar and synth.
And to tell the truth, I'd rather play with a band, but the cheap club owners around here just don't pay enough for me to make my mortgage payments in a big band - that went belly-up in the 1980s.
And drummers are people who like to hang out with musicians - JUST JOKING. I played classical music, and every one of those drummers could (1) read drum music note-for note and (2) also played mallet percussion like marimba, celeste, etc.
My first instrument was drums in school band and yes, they teach you how to read drum music and also teach music theory.
For further comparisons.
The engineer in a recording studio makes music from clips the musicians recorded. So is the engineer a musician?
Is the person doing the mixing a musician?
So does the person who sets up a rhythm on a drum machine and raps over the top. Is that rapper a musician?
The person who downloads a web page template and fills in his/her information. Is that person a computer programmer?
The nurse who assists in the surgical theater, is he/she a doctor?
We have labels to define things. Ask 100 people on the street who are not in our business this, "What is a musician?", and not one of them is likely to say DJ. And it's best we keep it that way. That's the essence of communication.
I'm not dissing DJs by any stretch of the imagination. A good DJ is a very talented person who can do many things I cannot do. But he/she is not a musician any more than my neighbor's mutt is a wolf.
Calling DJs musicians just waters the language down.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob-
Actually, I was agreeing with you. I was paraphrasing a previous poster who made the statement:
“What tickles me is that many of the folks who would swear the guy in the video is not a musician will get up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretend to be a band!”
I see it that both the DJ playing his instrument and someone using this feature in BIAB can create music but cannot necessarily duplicate the same song again.
He replicates it as much as any other live musician would. It's a performance, so there will be subtle variations, but it's the same song.
Quote:
In the same manner, any individual can also randomly pluck strings of a guitar, play random notes from a sax or trumpet creating music or musical notes
Give me a break, what he is not as random as you are making it out to be. You make it seem as though anyone with no skill can sit at a guitar and randomly pick notes and have it sound as good as what he is doing. Please.
Quote:
but it is a musician who has the mastery to replicate melodies, harmonies and notes into a cohesive, repeatable duplicate composition called a song.
The fact the he, and many others do exactly that, has me believing...by your own definition...is making a song.
Can he/does he replicate his melodies...yes! Can he/does he replicate harmonies...yes! Is it a cohesive, and repeatable composition...yes! Look out world...he...made...a...song! But I'm sure you will find some other way to disagree. So...
I think I am done with this topic.
At some point you just have to look at people and realize that for some the facts don't matter.
For every point that is made, I can show you someone doing that very thing to counter it.
But it doesn't and won't ever matter to someone that doesn't want to change their mind. Evidence and proof don't matter. It ultimately comes down to people just disagreeing without valid points. They are just disagreeable.
I have SOOOOO much more respect for someone that just says "Yeah...to me that sounds like crap. I honestly HATE it with a passion. But they are skilled at playing their instrument, even if it's not like any instrument I've ever seen, and making whatever that noise is." LOL
I lose respect for people who are of the thinking of "That's not how I do it, so it's wrong."
Believe it or not, I've gained A LOT of respect for some people from this thread. I'm glad the discussion was had.
Thanks to all of you...even those with opposing views! It was neat to see the examples given and have me think a bit more about what a musician and song is! I even had the discussion with my family and showed them examples. How cool is it that things like this spark conversations like that?
THANK YOU!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I make my own backing tracks. More often than not, every part in our backing tracks was played into the computer in real time, like a studio musician. There are some parts I use BiaB for what I call the 'mule parts' - the comp parts that are time consuming to play in - that is (a) if the part is appropriate and (2) more than likely, I played that part live into BiaB in the first place.
In other words, I respectfully think it's you who doesn't understand
Along with the backing tracks I make I sing and play sax, wind synth, flute, and guitar. At home I also play bass, drums and keyboards. On stage with me Leilani sings, plays guitar and synth.
And to tell the truth, I'd rather play with a band, but the cheap club owners around here just don't pay enough for me to make my mortgage payments in a big band - that went belly-up in the 1980s.
And drummers are people who like to hang out with musicians - JUST JOKING. I played classical music, and every one of those drummers could (1) read drum music note-for note and (2) also played mallet percussion like marimba, celeste, etc.
My first instrument was drums in school band and yes, they teach you how to read drum music and also teach music theory.
For further comparisons.
The engineer in a recording studio makes music from clips the musicians recorded. So is the engineer a musician?
Is the person doing the mixing a musician?
So does the person who sets up a rhythm on a drum machine and raps over the top. Is that rapper a musician?
The person who downloads a web page template and fills in his/her information. Is that person a computer programmer?
The nurse who assists in the surgical theater, is he/she a doctor?
We have labels to define things. Ask 100 people on the street who are not in our business this, "What is a musician?", and not one of them is likely to say DJ. And it's best we keep it that way. That's the essence of communication.
I'm not dissing DJs by any stretch of the imagination. A good DJ is a very talented person who can do many things I cannot do. But he/she is not a musician any more than my neighbor's mutt is a wolf.
Calling DJs musicians just waters the language down.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Well said in many ways. A few questions for you my good sir.
1-Is a person who composes and plays a keyboard with piano samples instead of an actual piano, a musician? (Bear in mind, this person did not record the piano samples on their own). Why or why not?
2-Is a "DJ" who goes into a recording studio and creates his own samples, meaning he actually records various sounds and manipulates them to what he needs for his song, THEN plays those sounds via his keyboard a musician? Why or why not?
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
The engineer in a recording studio makes music from clips the musicians recorded. So is the engineer a musician?
Um...well you said "makes music"...lol. I think to a point yes. He would have to be familiar with things like song structure, and meter to make that work. Those are essential to...creating music. You couldn't have a two year old take those clips and make a song. I do see your point though.
I think you meant, but could be wrong, is the person who pushes the record button, kind of thing, a musician. I would say no on that one.
Quote:
Is the person doing the mixing a musician?
I don't believe so. Does he/she play an instrument besides mixing? Then he/she may be. But the act of mixing doesn't make you a musician in my book.
Quote:
So does the person who sets up a rhythm on a drum machine and raps over the top. Is that rapper a musician?
It sounds like it would be to me. rhythm and pitch, understanding of hooks maybe. I would say yes. I get not as complex musically as classical music, but neither is most music.
Quote:
The person who downloads a web page template and fills in his/her information. Is that person a computer programmer?
No. But this is a flawed analogy. The DJ examples I gave aren't using a template any more than any other musician is using...song structure/form.
Interestingly, is the person who takes a piece of sheet music and plays to it not a musician?
Quote:
The nurse who assists in the surgical theater, is he/she a doctor?
Sorry, but your analogies don't seem to work. The nurse, by definition, is different than the doctor, by definition.
The DJ examples I gave, by definition of "musician", are musician.
Does this mean ALL DJ's are musicians. Not at all.
But to say none of them are, is not accurate either.
There are DJ's who are musicians. You would argue there isn't a single one that is.
And meanings of words do change. It's the nature of language. It's dynamic.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
But it doesn't and won't ever matter to someone that doesn't want to change their mind. Evidence and proof don't matter. It ultimately comes down to people just disagreeing without valid points. They are just disagreeable.
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