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This reminds me of the synth discussions in the eighties, poo poo, that's not real music..LOL.
Those boxes are just synths in a different shape, where's the problem?
Chris
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Oh dear. I have the feeling of "I wish I'd never started that"
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Josie, I am very glad you did. It has served to clarify everyone's thoughts no matter what stand they take. It's probably not a burning issue to anyone but me, but I immensely enjoyed the discussion. No one's feelings have been hurt, and it hasn't gotten personal except for some bizarre remarks about someone who might or might not have belonged to another forum entirely. I'd like to thank you for making the original post.
Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Oh dear. I have the feeling of "I wish I'd never started that" Ok, I said I was going to move on, as in not respond further, but when I saw this, I felt the need to. I in NO way regret this discussion. I'm very happy it happened. I doubt I changed any minds with my contribution, or lack there of. In my home, though, it was great to hear my wife's and children's opinions. It got a family talking. I feel that way in this forum too. Ultimately it comes down to opinions. If I don't agree with someone, doesn't mean I feel they aren't entitled to opinion. We simply see things differently. I don't dislike anyone over this FOR SURE. When I say I need to move on, it has less to do with me being mad, and more to do with me getting my work done! LOL Actually, that's pretty much entirely it. That being said, I say again, thank you!  So what topic should we not solve next?
Last edited by HearToLearn; 04/16/15 09:41 AM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Thank you Ryzard and HTL.
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Sinbad/Chris gets it! Give the man a cookie!
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Sinbad/Chris gets it! Give the man a cookie! Richard, I finally noticed your byline, "My primary musical instrument is the personal computer." I love that!!
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You get a cookie, too, J3!
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Yup, I use samples, loops, virtual synths, drum machines, computer-aided composition software (BIAB and Reason), and a few traditional instruments, as well as my PC to do what I do. It doesn't happen in real time, though, and I do play some bass, guitar, and harps, which might mess with the curve for some. But I don't think anyone will argue that what I create is not music, or that I am not a musician. Yes, I can play guitar and sing without any of that. But to do what I love I need all of it.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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<...snip...> Actually, I was agreeing with you.  I was paraphrasing a previous poster who made the statement: “What tickles me is that many of the folks who would swear the guy in the video is not a musician will get up on stage with pre-recorded backing tracks and pretend to be a band!” I could have made the reference more clear. Regards, Bob Sorry, I misunderstood. Bob
Well said in many ways. A few questions for you my good sir.
1-Is a person who composes and plays a keyboard with piano samples instead of an actual piano, a musician? (Bear in mind, this person did not record the piano samples on their own). Why or why not?
2-Is a "DJ" who goes into a recording studio and creates his own samples, meaning he actually records various sounds and manipulates them to what he needs for his song, THEN plays those sounds via his keyboard a musician? Why or why not?
1) IMHO yes. A sample is a very different thing from a loop. 2) Depends on the various sounds and what kind of keyboard he/she is playing them on. And if the DJ can also play keyboard he/she can be both a musician and a DJ. They are not mutually exclusive. In the early 80s I played in a 4 piece group that classified itself as "BJs" - Band-Jocks. Play a few live, spin a couple of recordings, play a few more live, etc. Not a bad idea. It didn't go over well, perhaps it was just ahead of its time. There are from time to time songs a client wants to hear and that may be either inappropriate for us to learn, or too studio intensive for a duo to properly cover. I'll happily "DJ" them during our act, and even noodle along on the guitar while doing so. There is nothing wrong with various ways to make music. Whether you are pushing buttons on Ableton Live, assembling loops, using an auto-accompaniment app like BiaB, or playing a piano. There is nothing degrading about being a DJ or making music by assembling loops of what other people have already played. There are different talents involved. Personally, I'm in awe of what some people can do with sampled loops, a skill I've never wanted to learn. But we have specific terms for specific things, and when we start using those terms incorrectly, we impede communication. Since this conversation started, I've taken the liberty to ask non-musicians - some friends - some regular customers about it. I usually pose the question as, which of these would you call musicians, pianists, guitarists, saxophonists, singers, drummers, DJs. Nobody picks DJs. IMHO that's a good thing because the skills involved in both 'art forms' are different. So call it what you want. I agree with both my own reasoning and what the general public perceives, DJs make music but aren't musicians. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
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And I thought this horse had been flogged to death 
Chris
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And I thought this horse had been flogged to death No it's still alive -- according to a German song about the Holzmichl -- the wood chopping Michael -- the Wood-Michael. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-418rybwVIOriginal words here: http://www.songtexte.com/songtext/de-randfichten/lebt-denn-dr-alte-holzmichl-noch-3de618b.htmlMachine Translation with a little correction: Michael is not fine, Michael is not fine, Michael is not fine, his nose is all red. Hacking (wood) is difficult for him, to hack is difficult hacking is hard for him and cough plagues him very much. Because Michael is really bad off, all sing very softly now this song. Is the old Wood-Michael still alive, is Wood-Michael still alive, is Wood-Michael still alive? Yes, he's alive, he's still alive, he's still alive. Yes, he's alive, he's still alive, does not die. Michael is sick, Michael is sick, Michael is sick, we will also be anxious and scared. What shall we do then just what are we supposed to do only what are we supposed to just do so, he must now take a rest. Because Michael is really bad off, we all together hum our song. Mmh ... Michael is half dead, Michael is half dead, Michael is half dead, we have our hands full with him. He is now on the plank, he is now on the plank, He is now on the plank and he does not say much. Because with Michael it's now coming to an end, we all fall quiet for our song. ... Come on, let's go to the grave visit him once. Just look, a miracle has happened. Dr Michl's not dead, fortunately, therefore we sing the song as loud as we can sing. Is the old Wood-Michael still alive, is Wood-Michael still alive, is Wood-Michael still alive? Yes, he's alive, he's still alive, he's still alive. Yes, he's alive, he's still alive, does not die.
Last edited by GHinCH; 04/17/15 05:49 AM.
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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Depends on the various sounds and what kind of keyboard he/she is playing them on. First, , thanks for you reply. It was well thought out for sure! I hope you don't mind me asking, as I am not challenging your opinion so much as trying to understand. 1-So the type of sound is what determines if it is an instrument, not if it is "pitched" to, as an example, key? Am I understanding that correctly? 2-The input device would determine if the person is a musician or not? Not if the person is using music theory, or creating music? More specifically, a piano controller would make the person a musician, however using a keypad controller (even if mapped as a piano) would negate the person as a musician? As far as meanings of words, it is a natural part of language to have words meanings change or even evolve. Gay, rubbers, sick, bad...all examples. Just because it is the general consensus doesn't mean it isn't already changing. The fact that we have people in this discussion with opposing views shows there is a shift. We are not all here agreeing on the meaning. Technology is one of those things that really pushes change in wording. I don't care how many people in 1995 would all agree that they know exactly what a phone is. It is not the thing I carry in my pocket today! The meaning of "phone" has changed, as is the definition of musician. Just my two cents. I get the feeling I'm getting two cents back in change though  Seriously, thanks for you well thought out, and well exampled posts. I truly enjoy them!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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90DB where did you find that? It's hilarious. Threads like this are all in good fun, no offense intended to anybody. Btw, someone said maybe I'm not the oldest one in this thread? I'll be 70 in November and everybody is invited on my lawn...just bring some beer. Anybody besides me recognize Jordan Rudess in that second NAMM show vid posted above? He's the leader of Dream Theater and is one of the monster keyboard players of our time, check him out on YT. Right behind him is the Hammond booth and I was standing right there off to the side while he was playing around with the Linninstrument. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Btw, someone said maybe I'm not the oldest one in this thread? I'll be 70 in November and everybody is invited on my lawn...just bring some beer.
Bob It was me and you beat me by 5 months as I'll be 70 next April! I just turned 69.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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"90DB where did you find that? It's hilarious."
Photobucket.
Regards,
Bob
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even the dictionaries don't agree.
------------------------------------
RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY:
MUSICIAN: a person who performs OR composes music
MUSIC: the art of ordering sounds into cohesive and structured forms
-------------------------------------
FUNK & WAGNALL'S standard desk dictionary:
MUSICIAN:
1) A professional performer or composer of music
2) one skilled in performing or composing music
MUSIC:
1) a succession or combination of musical sounds, especially if the sounds are pleasing to the ear
2) the art of producing significant arrangements of sounds, usually with reference to rhythm, pitch and tone
3) a musical score
---------------------------------------
DICTIONARY.COM
MUSICIAN:
1) a person who makes music a profession, especially as a performer of music.
2) any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music.
MUSIC:
1) an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2) the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
3) musical work or compositions for singing or playing.
4) the written or printed score of a musical composition.
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to one degree or another, a person's definition of a musician would have to depend on his definition of music. The word music has multiple uses:
1) sheet music
"Do you have the music for STAR SPANGLED BANNER?"
2) particularly pleasing sound
"To me the sound of a thunderstorm is music to my ears"
3) particularly pleasing music (preference)
"You call that crap music?? Jazz.. now THAT'S music!"
4) an industry
"my daughter's in engineering, and my son's in music"
5) a type of artistic composition
"Few creative endeavors have influenced civilization as much as classical music.."
etc etc
Last edited by Pat Marr; 04/17/15 09:51 AM.
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even the dictionaries don't agree. They don't have to agree to make the point. I'm not going to cover the "music" definitions as I just wanted to make the point that some DJ's are in fact, highly skilled in orchestration, production and performance of music. To me, that is a musician! Here is the type of DJ I speak of that I would, hands down, consider a musician. Not a musician? I will gladly concede that they are not all like him; AND there are many others who are. I don't understand how someone could say he isn't a musician. Using what standard? Let's see... ------------------------------------ RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY:
MUSICIAN: a person who performs OR composes music He is performing without a doubt here. He also composes. Also, for the record, I don't think you could argue that they are not cohesive or structure. He is playing along to himself, included lead vocal and harmony lines! -------------------------------------
FUNK & WAGNALL'S standard desk dictionary:
MUSICIAN:
1) A professional performer or composer of music He is no doubt a professional performer of music. People dance to the sounds from his performance. He is paid as well. 2) one skilled in performing or composing music I don't think anyone could argue this doesn't take skill. It's probably more skill than most of us have! ---------------------------------------
DICTIONARY.COM
MUSICIAN:
1) a person who makes music a profession, especially as a performer of music. This DJ has made it his profession performing his music...and others! Which mean he is also duplicating his efforts. It's not random as some would imply. 2) any person, whether professional or not, skilled in music. He is a skilled professional, but wouldn't even have to be. Again, there are many DJ's who are not musicians. But there are many, and a growing number as the technology grows and improves, that are using it as musicians! I don't know if it's the shape of the button you push, or what what the button is made of that seems to make some a musician or not. To me, that seems to be more so what people have the problem with. If it's plastic and on a simulated piano keyboard...musician. If it's rubber and on anything that doesn't look like a traditional instrument, then the person is not a musician. It's not about weather or not the person is actually performing something people dance to or enjoy listening to. It's not about the skill level involved in their performance. It's about the button they push. It's very strange to me.
Last edited by HearToLearn; 04/17/15 12:07 PM.
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
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Here is a small example of an original piece from a "DJ." Again, it's not something I would listen to, but I think the skill involved is up there with many other instruments. He is demonstrating more skill than I feel many who call themselves musicians have. A "DJ" playing a song On a side note, I'm not sure if this was ever mentioned... THE OPPOSING SIDE I have a friend who does this kind of thing. When people come up to him and say "Hey, I hear you're a DJ." You can see him cringe. He says he doesn't want people thinking of what he does as a guy who pushes play on a CD player at a wedding! Ha! Enjoyed that quite a bit, and I'm probably well on the old side of the bell curve for this type of music.
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Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
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