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I'm a little late to this party, and I have an early gig today so I haven't read all the posts, so excuse me if this has been said already.
IMO a DJ is not a musician. He/she may make music, but isn't a musician.
Let me make a comparison.
A person who makes art by pasting cut out images is not a painter, he/she is collagist. The collage may be beautiful and sell to collectors for big bucks, but that's beside the point.
In order for someone to be a musician, they have to play a musical instrument that is capable of reading any piece of at least single part music notation. That doesn't mean everyone has to read music to be a musician, but the instrument you play has to be one that in the hands of some musicians can do that.
If I write an original melody, notate it on a piece of sheet music, and put it in front of every DJ in the world, none of them can read it with their DJ equipment.
If I write 3 new melodic variations on a theme from Mozart and notate it, can a DJ play that?
Millions and millions of musicians can, even millions of bad ones. But the best DJ in the world can not.
Therefore DJs are not musicians but instead musical collagists.
That's not to say they aren't talented, that doesn't mean they don't create music, it just means they aren't musicians.
If we call DJs musicians, then we need to call people who create collages painters, and people who can write simple web pages (like myself) computer programmers.
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I thought this dead horse had been beaten enough.  Let's just redefine “musician” then. A musician is now defined as anyone who produces sound, on any medium. Okey Dokey. The “musician” the OP posted? Heck, he's just like J. S. Bach! I would say that he is really closer to Stravinsky though. I understand that ol' Igor isn't very pleased with the comparison. 
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Bob Norton: You (and perhaps others) should read my two posts for context. FWIW, Josie says she agrees with what I have said. Perhaps I should say that I haven't watched the video to which she posted a link. I've just been waiting to pounce the next time this subject came up again, 'cause I missed the last go-round. I know I'll take some heat for it, but I think it's worth it. The times they are a-changin'.
Some of you are clinging to your guns, which is to be expected, but I think I see some softening in the hearts of others. I like that.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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90 dB, I think that ol' Igor, iconoclast that he was, would approve. There were riots after its premiere, but "The Rites Of Spring" is still being played and appreciated for the groundbreaking work that it is. Now the baton is being passed, and some of us old farts are sneering at the new kids. I have to repeat this for those who have not read the entire discussion. The term "DJ" has two meanings now. The first is the one we are all familiar with: Someone who plays vinyl, disks, or audio files for the entertainment of others, often at dances. However skillfully they do it, it is simple playback of prerecorded material. NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE MUSICIANS. I think it is unfortunate that the term has been applied to a new group of performers who use electronics and digital media to do their thing. If another term had been chosen we might not be having this discussion. In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators (just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before. Again, read my previous posts to flesh this out. Re: Organized sound: I have accepted this term as a definition of music from Frank Zappa, who borrowed it from a mentor/20th-century classical composer. Youse can look it up. 
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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A person who makes art by pasting cut out images is not a painter, he/she is collagist.
In order for someone to be a musician, they have to play a musical instrument that is capable of reading any piece of at least single part music notation. That doesn't mean everyone has to read music to be a musician, but the instrument you play has to be one that in the hands of some musicians can do that.
If I write an original melody, notate it on a piece of sheet music, and put it in front of every DJ in the world, none of them can read it with their DJ equipment.
.... DJs are not musicians but instead musical collagists.
That's not to say they aren't talented, that doesn't mean they don't create music, it just means they aren't musicians.
If we call DJs musicians, then we need to call people who create collages painters, and people who can write simple web pages (like myself) computer programmers. I don't think a "collagist" would classify themselves as a painter...... but they would certainly classify themselves as an artist. In the same way a sculptor doesn't paint, but is certainly an artist. In the same way that a guitarist may not be able to play a piano and would not classify themselves as a piano player but would certainly classify themselves as musicians. By whose standard does an instrument have to be able to be played to sheet music? That's like saying all communication has to take place using smoke signals. Call me crazy, but times and technology are making lots of things possible. If that guy has a drum pad sampler in his rig...and honestly, I did not watch much of that video..... and he tapped those pads, waaaa laaaa..... musical instrument capable of being played by following sheet music. Set some sheet music in front of me for Bach's 79th cantata, or even twinkle twinkle little star and I will simply stare at the notes, but does that mean I'm not a musician because I can not read the sheet music and convert it to sound with my guitar? I agree that if you simply spin records or mix recorded music using turntables .... no, that's a DJ in the strictest sense of the word and not exactly a musician..... however, if you are running samplers and loopers and doing it live to and with the records and other things that are under your control, then yes, I would classify that person as a musician..... certainly not a sheet music reading piano player, but definitely a musician since they are creating music on the fly. When DJ's first became popular and started spinning records, I was on the side of the argument that non-musicians were taking jobs away from musicians...... however, that is no longer the case. Some of those folks are extremely talented with what they do. So I have to come down on the side that says, yes, a DJ can be a musician.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 04/14/15 05:14 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Josie,
IMHO . . . The young lady is a musician, the cat operating the the switches is a sound man.
Later,
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I just push my 88 buttons in a different order each time and somehow music comes out.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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I just push my 88 buttons in a different order each time and somehow music comes out.
LMAO! Later.
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so, if this guy is not a musician then neither are piano players! he pushes buttons in a certain order and makes music...they push buttons in a certain order and make music!  but of course the guy is a musician! I will never understand why some folks are so close-minded to something new. him being labeled a musician does not take anything away from those of you who play a more classic instrument! I recall a time when rock artists were sneered at by music snobs because they were not playing it the way "they were supposed to"! and that whole "their takin' our jobs" line is simply nonsense! they can only take your jobs if the audience likes them better! that's on you to up your game!
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I thought this dead horse had been beaten enough. Remember what I said before (another topic somewhere) There is no horse so dead it cannot be beaten some more! Larry
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This has turned into another exercise in "DIFFERENCE IN KIND VS. DIFFERENCE IN DEGREE"
Differences in KIND occur across a large range of proficiency... (starting with the guy in the woods with a stick and a log. He can't read sheet music, but he has started a new KIND of behavior that will eventually lead to people who can.) ranging to the person like Michelangelo who excels at many kinds of artistic expression.
Differences in DEGREE reveal proficiency within a subset of the KIND. Subsets of ART are painter, collagist, sculptor, and many many more... including music.
People in one subset of the arts are almost always very specific in their focus, and therefore not proficient at all in the other subsets. It would be incorrect to say that a sculptor is not an artist because he lacks the skills of the painter. It would be equally false to say that an art student is not an artist because he/she cannot yet paint like Michelangelo. The terms "artist" (and "musician" ) do not imply excellence , only activity within a KIND of pursuit.
To say that an artist is not an artist because they don't perform at the proficiency of someone else in a different subset is false logic, for it then becomes an exercise in comparing apples and oranges.
If you bring notation into the picture as a "requirement", then you must consider the different KINDS of notation.. including MIDI. If MIDI were the notation kind, then many DJs COULD use that kind of notation to reproduce other peoples' works of art. But we should still remember that the original guy in the woods with a stick hadn't progressed to reading notation yet... yet he would be considered a primitive musician by the KIND of activity, if not by the DEGREE of his proficiency.
The arts have traditionally been defined very loosely and inclusively, because its the nature of creativity to venture into new territory.
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“In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators ( just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before.” Richard - If you believe that "playing" this:  Is the same thing as playing this:  I have to disagree. No offense, but we just have different views on the subject. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. In an era where texting passes for conversation, I also realize that I am in the minority. Regards, Bob
Last edited by 90 dB; 04/14/15 07:55 AM. Reason: I Edit, Therefore I am.
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Bob, if you'd have asked Andre Segovia whether playing your plank was the same as playing his Ramirez, you'd have gotten a similar reaction.
Chris
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Bob, if you'd have asked Andre Segovia whether playing your plank was the same as playing his Ramirez, you'd have gotten a similar reaction. That's true, but Andre never did get any decent distortion. Regards, Bob
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“In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators ( just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before.” Richard - If you believe that "playing" this: Is the same thing as playing this: I have to disagree. No offense, but we just have different views on the subject. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. In an era where texting passes for conversation, I also realize that I am in the minority. Regards, Bob +1
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Bob, if you'd have asked Andre Segovia whether playing your plank was the same as playing his Ramirez, you'd have gotten a similar reaction. +1
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I'm a conservatory graduate in classical guitar.
As I see it, a DJ is an Entertainer. Like a Comedian, a Ventriloquist or a Magician.
So, in my book, a DJ is NOT and never will be a musician.
HTH,
Last edited by LtKojak; 04/14/15 09:35 AM.
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I'm with you Bob
I will say since he has a vision (maybe) and seems able to implement it, using those tools, he could be called an "artist" or better a "performing artist." Maybe that "dude" is even a genius, in whatever art form that is, but IMHO he is NOT a musician.
Of course today we call anyone who takes in O2 and expels CO2 on any street corner, who is in some reality TV show, is contemplating their own navel under a tree, or putting religious symbols in excrement - "artist."
Larry
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Gentleman (and Josie): If you accept the output from these people's apparati as music, then they are by definition musicians. If you don't, there is no basis for further discussion.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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“In any case, this second group of "DJs" select from samples, loops, pads, synthesizers, and other sound generators ( just as we would select notes on a piano, saxophone, guitar, or any other instrument) to create "organized sound,"* or *music* which did not exist before.” Richard - If you believe that "playing" this: Is the same thing as playing this: I have to disagree. No offense, but we just have different views on the subject. To me, comparing this scrawny, unwashed button-pusher to Igor Stravinsky is absurd. In an era where texting passes for conversation, I also realize that I am in the minority. Regards, Bob Bob, a piano or synthesizer keyboard is not an instrument, either; it is an interface. The Novation LaunchPad is an interface for the Ableton Live DAW and performance program, which I DO consider an instrument. Why? Because people make music with it. R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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