Sundance, it's always in my nature to clarify my statements and do my best to be sure I feel I am understood. It doesn't always work, but here it goes, just in case anything was taken wrong
Quote:
As I said I'm not crazy about that song - to be completely clear I don't like it and never have. It's too over the top and out there for me. I was just trying to show you what the songwriters did to try and make it not totally trash her image since as lunatic as she comes off it would've been even more so without those lines added.
Exactly! I know you weren't/aren't crazy about the song. I personally, don't see you ever writing something along these lines. It would be so inconsistent with what a great person I feel you are! I want to be sure you know that!
That being said, I am very grateful you pointed out those lines, because...although they don't excuse the behavior (and I get your weren't trying to say it does) I find it interesting that you brought the point up. NOT THAT you agree with it! More that you were stating, in societies eyes, it made the singer seem more "acceptable."
I simply wanted to point out that if reversed, and it was a man, even with those lyrics, I still think people find it unacceptable. One of those double standards...of many!
Again, I'm not saying I think YOU think that way, or agree with it. You simply brought up a great point in song writing that sparked an idea in me. Thank you for that!
I don't think there is a single person on this forum that doubts how genuine and truly nice you are! We are blessed to have you here!
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There are always exceptions in this or that song that was a hit for anything anyone tells you about songwriting that can be brought out for debate.
So true!
Quote:
I don't have anything else to add. I'm off to Golden Ear Training. Great critical listening exercise. grin
That scares me. Not you doing it. Me doing it! It's a challenge for me! Good luck!
Quote:
Looking forward to hearing some of your songs.
So am I! Ha! I had a discussion with a forum member about completion. I just have too many ideas and wasn't sure how to go about just finishing some of them. Thanks for the encouragement and inspiration!
I hope I cleared up anything that maybe could have been taken a different way?
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I write from both perspectives. Some of my songs do reflect personal experience (IE: my VN picnic, a non-preachy philosophical POV or life lessons/thoughts) but most are of subjects I've found interesting to write about. My subjects of choice are not reflective of just one safe lyrical genre. Song writing is creative therapy for me.
Thanks for the response! I know what you mean about the creative therapy.
I also agree about the POV point. Well said!
On the commercial side, I'm sure I will hit that point in my life where I write because it's pure. Right now, I am drawn to writing more commercial sounding songs. I'm not sure why I like it; but I do. It may be the challenge for me!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I am a song writer, but never said I was a good one. I like some songs I have written but think most of them are just not very good.
I write songs for others to their demands and about subject matter they want so I have no choice if it was something I had experience with or not.
The strangest part of all that is the stuff I think is the worst thing I have ever written is stuff I often get the most positive feed back on...Go figure
I had a conversation with T-Bone Walker one day about Stormy Monday and he said he did a ton of stuff better than that and never understood why it became such a hit. We had a chuckle when I told him I hope I never have to play it again. Sick of it....lol Having said that I caught myself playing those inside T-Bone chords right out of Stormy Monday the other night for no reason at all.
Actually I know why....I miss the real deal blues people I have had the privilege to play with, and eat Bar B Q with, and go to weddings with and on and on.
I like living and I am a very happy person but I will be glad when I die. I want to see my friends.
Cheers,
Billy
Wow Billy!
I soooo know what you mean about some of the worst stuff you have written getting the best reactions. For me, it was when I felt something was too dumbed down, or too simple. I guess the less specific the more relatable for me.
You sir, have some pretty amazing friends!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I write about personal experience only because that's all I can do. If people listen to tap into the emotion of a song, how much more real can the emotion be about loving a woman who doesn't love you back so much that it hurts your heart? That was Wasting My Time. And another plea to make her aware that I was the best guy she will ever know. That was I'm The One. Or when I quit drinking (I REALLY needed to do that!), and why I quit. That was Many Years Ago. Second Chance was after the car crash when I realized that you really don't know when your life will end.
Quote:
I think this is a great thing! It hits into the therapy that was referenced earlier in the post. It also, IMO, comes from a great place...true emotion! I've also liked how these types of songs can act as a reminder of points in our lives.
If I tried to write songs about other people's lives or mythical things, I couldn't put myself into the situation and the lyrics would not have the sense of sincerity that lyrics need.
It's pretty awesome that you can see and admit this of how you write. I also feel as though realize aspects of yourself help propel your song writing by not wasting time in areas that don't support where you want to go.
Quote:
As far as Underwood's song, any way you look at it that song promoted domestic violence and because of that song I will never listen to her music again.
I agree on the domestic violence.
That being said, I don't know her personally, but first hand know of the many good things she does. She really is a good person, and I don't feel really has considered the song for what it is. I think she is a bit blind to it's true meaning, as are the people that bought it.
I may be wrong, but I don't think they are really thinking in terms of supporting or not supporting DV. To many, it's just a song. I will be the first to admit, there are songs that I really didn't know the meaning of, or ever took the time to think about, that I like...and the message wasn't good after I found out. It makes me wonder what other songs I have like that!
Change will happen.
Thanks for the input!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I find it hard to write about things that didn't happen to me. Not because it would be difficult, but because I fear people may think that's me, or my story!
We shouldn't fear what people will think about us, especially from our songs or works of fiction. As songwriters, we should approach our craft like we were a child who loves to spend time just playing. We should steal, write, and play while enjoy stealing and writing and playing. In doing so, hopefully we become better writers and more original.
Don't let what others think of you get in your way of having fun with words and music. The world would have a lot fewer songs and works of fiction if all writers feared others thought their works autobiograpical.
If you don't where start, work from a phrase. Take any phrase like "Ramona", then use your imagination make up a story that will lead you to that phrase. If you have writer's block, steal. Take Bob's song, run it through a strainer by changing the story line and making it your song. I imagine that is what Waylon amd Don Bowman did when they wrote Waylon's early hit song "Anita, You're Dreaming" about 2 years after Bob's "Ramona" was released. I'll include the lyrics and links below so you can compare its similarities with "Ramona".
Anita come closer, stop crying and listen to me I guess its too late now but somehow I must make you see What we thought was our world was only a dream world and we just can't go on like this Anita your dreaming of a world that can never exist
Anita it's over there's nothing that's left now to say Anita your dreaming and I know it's better this way
Anita come closer and close your pretty blue eyes Your young dreams just can't be and somehow you must realize That each time your with me my conscious reminds me of someone who's waiting alone Anita your dreaming and when you awake I'll be gone
Anita it's over there's nothing that's left now to say Anita your dreaming and I know it's better this way
[quote]Thanks for the response! I know what you mean about the creative therapy. I also agree about the POV point. Well said! On the commercial side, I'm sure I will hit that point in my life where I write because it's pure. Right now, I am drawn to writing more commercial sounding songs. I'm not sure why I like it; but I do. It may be the challenge for me!
Ha...well...that's what will make one some buckaroos. Adhering to writing as a personal creative therapy isn't a guaranteed path to any monetary success.
I have one song called "I'm Goin That Way Too" being one of those massaged by Ted Perlman some years ago. When I'm in some delusional reverie I'd always wondered if it catered to any degree of commercial viability. But alas, I'll never know because I don't have the confidence (ego) to believe that I could ever write something that would have any mass appeal.
IIRC from one of your previous posts......you are already in the music biz and writing/recording jingles for some time? If so, I'll throw some respect your way for being able to be successful at it.
Anyway...we all write for different reasons and I'd wish all success in the paths they pursue.
That's interesting Jblaz comparing Anita to Ramona. Although Anita is a decent run of hte mill song, it lacks true genius (IMO). I feel Anita is too explaining.. it leaves the mid nothing to do..
Sometimes, even almosty always its about the rendering too of course
We shouldn't fear what people will think about us, especially from our songs or works of fiction.
The thing there is that people who write songs for a hobby or enjoyment are in a WHOLE different league than the people who are hired to crank out 4 or 6 a day in a songwriting factory. Refer back to that 6 song mashup that all sound exactly the same and that makes my point. Music now is formulaic, not emotional. This chord goes to that chord which goes to that chord and it can't be more than 3:34 long....
I have never sold a song, I doubt if I ever will, and I don't care because I have never been so delusional that I think my songs can compete in that arena. It's MY arena that matters to me, as I am not a professional writer.
Heck, I am having trouble finishing a 9 song CD! Trying to make schedules match with my engineer. Hard cheese!
The father of bluegrass Bill Monroe referred to some of his songs as "true life songs." That's fine but we can't live them all out. Janice and I have as great a marriage (35 years) as any couple in the solar system. Yet she can wrench out a relationship gone wrong song with ease. I call her a method actor. Take her and Tom's current song at the showcase forum. It's about spousal abuse. And that is something she has not and certainly will never experience...but IMHO she sings it convincingly.
Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
I'm not sure how to phrase this delicately so I won't. Some comments....wow....
What it boils down to is this.
It really doesn't matter whether the song is a real life experience or not. It doesn't matter if you have lived it, if you have seen others live it, or if you fabricated the entire thing in your creative mind. If you can write a good song from it, that's all that matters. Folks who say they have to live it to write it and put the emotion into it, well, most of that is an excuse for not writing, as I see it.
In fact I think that if you rely on your personal experiences only, as the source for your songwriting grist, you will have a harder time becoming a good writer because there's generally not enough personal experience material to choose from to write a wide variety of songs.
I've never been a cowboy...I don't care to be one.... but I could set down and think about the ones I have known.... we used to play in some cowboy bars, I listened to the stories that they told and from that.... I wrote "Where does a cowboy go".... didn't need to live it or experience it first hand...... but I can write a convincing song about it.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both.
The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
We shouldn't fear what people will think about us, especially from our songs or works of fiction. As songwriters, we should approach our craft like we were a child who loves to spend time just playing. We should steal, write, and play while enjoy stealing and writing and playing. In doing so, hopefully we become better writers and more original.
Don't let what others think of you get in your way of having fun with words and music. The world would have a lot fewer songs and works of fiction if all writers feared others thought their works autobiograpical.
Great advice! I mostly feel the same, but still have the little feeling in there KNOWING there are always those people who read into things. It's held me back a bit for too long.
Thanks!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
Ha...well...that's what will make one some buckaroos. Adhering to writing as a personal creative therapy isn't a guaranteed path to any monetary success. smile
I have one song called "I'm Goin That Way Too" being one of those massaged by Ted Perlman some years ago. When I'm in some delusional reverie I'd always wondered if it catered to any degree of commercial viability. But alas, I'll never know because I don't have the confidence (ego) to believe that I could ever write something that would have any mass appeal.
As strange as it sounds, it's not about the money, although to be clear I would NOT turn it down! ha!
I think I would just like to hear something I've written on the radio that moves enough people to have earned the right to be there. A simple want.
I do have a lot of things that get airplay, yet it's not the same.
Quote:
IIRC from one of your previous posts......you are already in the music biz and writing/recording jingles for some time? If so, I'll throw some respect your way for being able to be successful at it.
Anyway...we all write for different reasons and I'd wish all success in the paths they pursue.
Yes, I'm in my 21st year of writing jingles. Thanks for the well wishes and comments. It's very kind of you!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
The thing there is that people who write songs for a hobby or enjoyment are in a WHOLE different league than the people who are hired to crank out 4 or 6 a day in a songwriting factory. Refer back to that 6 song mashup that all sound exactly the same and that makes my point. Music now is formulaic, not emotional. This chord goes to that chord which goes to that chord and it can't be more than 3:34 long....
There are formula's to a point, but there always sort of have been IMO. Even the bands that go against anything commercial...it's sort of a formula in my head.
It's sort of like when Pearl Jam went on MTV to say they weren't going to promote their concerts....um, you just did
Quote:
I have never sold a song, I doubt if I ever will, and I don't care because I have never been so delusional that I think my songs can compete in that arena. It's MY arena that matters to me, as I am not a professional writer.
Heck, I am having trouble finishing a 9 song CD! Trying to make schedules match with my engineer. Hard cheese! grin
I would love to hear it when you do finish it! It sounds you write from a place I also like and enjoy greatly!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
The father of bluegrass Bill Monroe referred to some of his songs as "true life songs." That's fine but we can't live them all out. Janice and I have as great a marriage (35 years) as any couple in the solar system. Yet she can wrench out a relationship gone wrong song with ease. I call her a method actor. Take her and Tom's current song at the showcase forum. It's about spousal abuse. And that is something she has not and certainly will never experience...but IMHO she sings it convincingly.
What an eye opener! I know people do this, but never thought of it along the lines of method acting! Brilliant! Thanks for that!
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
I'm not sure how to phrase this delicately so I won't. Some comments....wow....
Wow? How so? What moved you, opened your eyes or shocked you? Just curious
Quote:
What it boils down to is this.
It really doesn't matter whether the song is a real life experience or not. It doesn't matter if you have lived it, if you have seen others live it, or if you fabricated the entire thing in your creative mind. If you can write a good song from it, that's all that matters. Folks who say they have to live it to write it and put the emotion into it, well, most of that is an excuse for not writing, as I see it.
In fact I think that if you rely on your personal experiences only, as the source for your songwriting grist, you will have a harder time becoming a good writer because there's generally not enough personal experience material to choose from to write a wide variety of songs.
I've never been a cowboy...I don't care to be one.... but I could set down and think about the ones I have known.... we used to play in some cowboy bars, I listened to the stories that they told and from that.... I wrote "Where does a cowboy go".... didn't need to live it or experience it first hand...... but I can write a convincing song about it.
Agreed BUT it was never about this.
It was about if others THOUGHT the song was about your life events. It can be embarrassing at times if people think your song was you, or something you wrote about. That was/is the discussion
Chad (Hope that makes it easier)
TEMPO TANTRUM: What a lead singer has when they can't stay in time.
It was about if others THOUGHT the song was about your life events. It can be embarrassing at times if people think your song was you, or something you wrote about. That was/is the discussion
Ha....funny you say that.
Two of the last (4) songs I've uploaded (w/BIAB instrumentation) are definitely NOT me as a person. (It's About Time/A Hundred Good Reasons).
I just picked a subject matter and ran with with it...well...hobbled along with it. The lyrics (always a time vampire for me) took some time to flesh out to my satisfaction.
Sheesh....if any listeners of those two efforts thought it was any reflection of my true character I'd be far more than just 'embarrassed'. I'd be experiencing incarceration at some prison resort.
I did not mean to imply your efforts in the commercial music world was motivated for the money only. But...two decades and you're still doing it without becoming disillusioned or weary of some of it's aspects/demands have not been discouraging to you. Noteworthy...and obviously, you're good at what you do and sets a fine example for others pursuing the same path.
The feeling of having one's original song being played on the radio? Indescribable comes to mind.
Elvis Presley did not write lyrics but he had an amazing career singing songs about what others had experienced. To write songs about other people's experiences or feelings; just imagine how that experience would effect you. I just wrote a song called "My Baby Left Me For The Postman". I have never had a dog named Ann or had a dog that was run over by a car. I did however run over a dog many years ago, and the owner came out and was just crushed. He just sat there holding the dog in tears. It was remembering that that was somewhat the inspiration for the song. Today singers are also writing their music more; but many of the older performers were not prolific writers. But they could take a song and like Elvis did with "My Way" it becomes their own. It is like the Elvis song You Gave Me A Mountain; the lyrics say; he was born in the heat of the desert and that his mother died giving him life. He later sings that his wife got tired of the heartache and took his baby boy; when he only had a girl. Elvis is probably the greatest ever to be able to do that at such a level; if he sang a song you believed he wrote it. A great singer can sing the phone book, and a great writer can write it. Many songs that Elvis did have been recorded over and over by multiple artist. In my own opinion what makes a great song is not just how close someone is to a situation; but it is that they can tell a story about said situation and leave people wanting more. Elton John doing the music for Lion King is another example of someone just being able to take what someone gives them to write about and then writing it; not necessarily what he has experienced and make great music from it.
when someone comes up to me after a performance and offers me condolences for my loss after a particularly sad song I smile and say "Thank You"! that "Thank You" is sincere. I am truly glad they were moved enough to approach me. 99.999% of the time we will never speak again and we will certainly never have a conversation where I have to explain it was an imaginary dog that was killed by those Nazi zombies in my song!
the MUCH BIGGER problem is getting anyone to listen or care enough about your song to even ask about it!
No offense taken. So sweet of you to make sure tho.
I was watching Graham Nash on Yahoo Live tonight - great songwriter and singer - loved it. If you're a fan you can catch the replay for a couple of a days.
He just told a cool story.
He said he'd just finished a show when a man came up to him and said I'll bet you $500 you can't write a song right here, right now before you go. So Graham sat down and wrote "Just a song before I go...." - LOL!
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