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http://www.bmi.com/news/entry/the_art_of...writing%20SongsI saw this and figured some here might be able to use this info. I saw a song posted the other day that consisted of cliche after cliche.... in other words, saying nothing while seeming to be saying everything. I'm pretty sure the writer wasn't aware of what they were doing, and likely thought it to be brilliant. And no, I'm not going to mention any names so don't ask. If the shoe fits...as they say...wear it. Of course, you might think this is totally useless and presumptive of me.....I'm posting this link in the hope it is enlightening to someone.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Interesting article Herb. The writer is certainly explaining the technique that has brought him success.
I typically feel an automatic resistance to any "rules" for creativity, however. His insistence that lyrics should be easily understood, for example... that may be desirable in some songs, but I have found that obscure lyrics are more inclined to draw me in and get me invested in my own interpretation. It doesn't matter if my interpretation is correct, it only matters that I'm sucked into the song enough to like it and hopefully buy it.
Even regarding the use of cliches.... generally speaking I agree its a bad idea, but I've heard songs where the cliche was part of the hook. If your goal is to throw your audience a curve, cliche is a great way to set their expectations very predictably. Then once you have them thinking you are going to point A... you go to point B instead.
In conclusion, I'm not disagreeing with the article as much as I am saying that creativity is best served without boundaries. Adherence to black and white rules can keep an artist from exploring idea mines where there may still be veins of gold left
<lurk mode ON>
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Interesting article Herb. The writer is certainly explaining the technique that has brought him success.
I typically feel an automatic resistance to any "rules" for creativity, however. His insistence that lyrics should be easily understood, for example... that may be desirable in some songs, but I have found that obscure lyrics are more inclined to draw me in and get me invested in my own interpretation. It doesn't matter if my interpretation is correct, it only matters that I'm sucked into the song enough to like it and hopefully buy it.
Even regarding the use of cliches.... generally speaking I agree its a bad idea, but I've heard songs where the cliche was part of the hook. If your goal is to throw your audience a curve, cliche is a great way to set their expectations very predictably. Then once you have them thinking you are going to point A... you go to point B instead.
In conclusion, I'm not disagreeing with the article as much as I am saying that creativity is best served without boundaries. Adherence to black and white rules can keep an artist from exploring idea mines where there may still be veins of gold left
<lurk mode ON> Ya gotta follow The Rules, man. 
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Ya gotta follow The Rules, man. There is only one rule to real creativity, and that rule is, there are no rules. Unless your a sculpture of wood, there are then two rules, the second one is, "You gotta destroy a tree"
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Even regarding the use of cliches.... generally speaking I agree its a bad idea, but I've heard songs where the cliche was part of the hook. Although I hesitated to contribute to this one  I'd throw out the following.... I think this statement..."I saw a song posted the other day that consisted of cliche after cliche"....was the point of the post. Not the subtle occasional use of a cliche in a chorus hook. IMO.... I don't agree the writer was unaware of the prolific usage of said cliches. As we all know there are what...hundreds of them (?) that are quite over used in song writing. It's safe and easier to write what everyone else has already written in hopes of it having some of the same perceived appeal to the listeners. It's difficult to write well thought out lyrics, interesting subject matter with a cohesive story line throughout. I've only commented on about 1/2 dozen songs in the User Showcase but those three criteria will always grab me and then I would gladly offer positive comments to the poster. On other hand, that's just me and most listeners may not scrutinize songs as seriously or care at all. All of our approaches are different. So, best to all who continue on with their (our) song writing quests. That's my take on it....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 07/29/15 10:57 AM.
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I saw a song posted the other day that consisted of cliche after cliche.... in other words, saying nothing while seeming to be saying everything. I'm pretty sure the writer wasn't aware of what they were doing, and likely thought it to be brilliant. And no, I'm not going to mention any names so don't ask. If the shoe fits...as they say...wear it.
I don't know if the shoe fits, but this could totally be me, except for the unaware and brilliant parts. I have some songs that are chock full of cliches and low hanging fruit. I have other songs that are less so. Sometimes I'm lazy and sometimes I persevere. Sometimes I want to be clever and very original. With other songs I go for a simple and familiar text. There are several of each kind on the unfinished stack. I don't know that one is right and the other is wrong. I do appreciate a clever and original song though. And I know that it's hard to detach from something that's been on paper for any length of time, at least for me it is. I've probably changed my approach because of that. Nowadays, I tend to find a rhyming word or even a sound, and try to build a line around it, if that makes sense. That seems to keep the possibilities door open for a longer period of time as I try out more and more combinations.
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Do whatever pleases you! It is fine to read these sorts of articles but take it all with a big ol grain of salt! The ones making money writing songs are rarely writing blog posts about how to write songs! If you wanna use a cliche then use it and enjoy it!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 07/29/15 11:07 AM.
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The thing about using cliches is that they are worn out expressions.
As a songwriter.... should we not try to say something in a new and creative way? Sure.... we have to talk about the same topics.... but... Why would you want to use an expression that has become so common that it's a cliche?
I'm not including the use of a cliche as something to play off of.....to create a new and unique way to look at it....well that fits the creative aspect just fine. When you are using cliche after cliche...and the entire verse/chorus is nothing but cliches..... well, that's where perhaps, one should have taken a bit more time and a better look at trying to say whatever it was they were trying to say in the first place.
THAT... would be the perfect place to re-write the verse. Think carefully about what is said line by line..... then write what was said but write it differently..... where you can not use the same words. It forces you to think creatively.
Some of the songs I have on my music page have been re-written and bounced back and forth between 6 to 15 times. I'm not talking about total re-writes, but perhaps a line, or a verse, sometimes just a few words..... but each time, something is changed to one degree or another.
Listen to Joanne Cooper's original version of Fools Errand and then the final version on my page. I did a rewrite and IIRC, JC was involved and contributed ideas as we worked on the rewrite. That's a recent example I can think of where you can hear the before and after. A rewrite doesn't necessarily have to be a huge difference, although it can be.
The point is that hopefully, some folks will learn how to rewrite their songs, not taking a first draft as a final version, and as a result, improvements will be made to the song in question and it will be the best it can be.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I truly don't get that musicians of all people think applied learning methods don't apply to songwriting. He's teaching exercises to learn the basics, like any craft. It's so ironic to me. When a person wants to learn to play an instrument around here - I never see, "Oooo whatever you do, don't learn anything about playing from anyone else, especially anyone who's made a living at it or "rules" will stiffle your creativity." LOL! No offense intended to anyone - I just find the double standard funny.
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I truly don't get that musicians of all people think applied learning methods don't apply to songwriting. He's teaching exercises to learn the basics, like any craft. It's so ironic to me. When a person wants to learn to play an instrument around here - I never see, "Oooo whatever you do, don't learn anything about playing from anyone else, especially anyone who's made a living at it or "rules" will stiffle your creativity." LOL! No offense intended to anyone - I just find the double standard funny. BOOM!!!!!
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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“I saw a song posted the other day that consisted of cliche after cliche.... in other words, saying nothing while seeming to be saying everything. I'm pretty sure the writer wasn't aware of what they were doing, and likely thought it to be brilliant. And no, I'm not going to mention any names so don't ask. If the shoe fits...as they say...wear it.”
Why not mention names? Even accused criminals have the right to face their accuser. Why not give the cliché abuser the benefit of your superior songwriting skills?
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“I saw a song posted the other day that consisted of cliche after cliche.... in other words, saying nothing while seeming to be saying everything. I'm pretty sure the writer wasn't aware of what they were doing, and likely thought it to be brilliant. And no, I'm not going to mention any names so don't ask. If the shoe fits...as they say...wear it.”
Why not mention names? Even accused criminals have the right to face their accuser. Why not give the cliché abuser the benefit of your superior songwriting skills?
BOOM!!!!!
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90dB Why not mention names? Even accused criminals have the right to face their accuser. Why not give the cliché abuser the benefit of your superior songwriting skills? While it might be "criminal" to use a cliche in songwriting, I have not accused any specific person therefore, you will need to determine if the shoe fits..... Guitarhacker from the original post And no, I'm not going to mention any names so don't ask. If the shoe fits...as they say...wear it.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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You're killin' me. 
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Glad to be of assistance.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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freedom of expression extends beyond music.
Its hypocritical to defend the right to pursue music any way you see fit (without rules), then criticize somebody for communicating ideas in ways that don't meet your rule.
and openly mocking people to silence them is downright juvenile.
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freedom of expression extends beyond music.
Its hypocritical to defend the right to pursue music any way you see fit (without rules), then criticize somebody for communicating ideas in ways that don't meet your rule.
and openly mocking people to silence them is downright juvenile. You're puttin' me on, right? 
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