For the different instruments in my band where transposing is necessary (Bb, Eb), I have recently been trying to producing lead sheets of tunes where there are several themes in different keys. I have encountered a problem that I had not noticed previously.
I use the F5 "Edit Settings for Current Bar" and "Key Signature Change to" for introducing key changes into a tune and that does a great job for Concert in all Clefs. When I then use the "Notation Window Options", "Transpose Options" to change to Alto Sax or Trumpet, the notes are transposed but the key signature for everything but the first section stays as it was originally. Sometimes, if I have a four-bar intro, that is the only line that has the correct key signature. The other lines or sections show the same key as the original Concert version.
For instance, on a tune like "Royal Garden Blues" when you have Intro (4 Bars)in F, Theme 1 in F, Theme 2 in Bb, and wish to transpose the tune for a Bb Trumpet. It should be showing keys of G, G, C but it ends up showing G, F, Bb. The notes are transposed but it shows the wrong key after the first theme.
I am wondering if there is something that I misunderstand about how the original key changes are entered. Because I cannot produce printouts showing the correct key for Bb and Eb transpositions as the key changes occur? Or possibly it is the way I am using the Lead Sheet instructions when creating the printouts?
I stress that on a tune with no key changes the transpositions are perfectly notated on the printout.
I just wanted to bump this query because maybe it is stupid and people did not want to tell me.
Of course, I do know how to produce the printout I need by creating a separate song file, changing the "Concert Key signature of song" and then change the entries in the F5 "Edit Settings for Current Bar". But that is a bit long-winded and, since I need concert, Bb and Eb versions, it creates three versions of each tune that I have to save.
It seems to me that one should be able to create all the printouts required for the different instruments from the one Concert Song File. I find it difficult to believe that no one has encountered this problem previously because tunes with more than one key signature in their form are not that unusual. Or maybe they have not because, like I said, I am doing something wrong?
I can't help you with this one. I was just playing around with having multiple keys in songs and then using some orchestral transposes. It seems that BIAB is not co-operative in doing this. I suggest you contact Support and see what they say. It could well be that you've reached BIAB's limits.
Thanks for looking at it Noel. I had a discussion with our clarinet player last night and he confirms experiencing the same problem. He uses the same solution as I do. He also smiled and said, "I noticed the problem in some of your other Band-in-a-Box charts and I changed them myself."
I just wanted to confirm on the forum that there was not an easy fix using the concert file.
I will drop a line to Support to see if they have a better idea.
I checked and got the same result. I'm pretty sure I've seen this before too. I grabbed a song that went from C Maj to Eb Maj in the chorus. I changed the key to F Maj. The notes and the chords changed (to F and Ab), but the key signature still showed 3 flats in the chorus.
Is that the same problem you are experiencing?
(Actually, I have to think that this might not be too difficult to fix, it might just be an oversight in the code that handles the key transposition, a missing step)
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Yep, that's the problem. It is compounded if you have an Intro of say four bars and then a section A in the same key, and then a section B in a different key. The key signature in the transposed version is then only correct for the first four bars.
I hear what you say but I think it is rather an obvious thing to have been overlooked. I was thinking more that the limit of what you can do with the existing code has been reached. Believe you me, working with a software company myself, I can appreciate the problem. And software development takes soooo long these days. It is not like the old DOS days at all. But I hope you are correct and I am wrong.
I doubt it's due to a limitation in the code. I'd be very surprised.
Anyway, not sure if you contacted them yet, but I've reported it to Support. We can let the others know of any response.
Cheers Trev
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Thanks Trev, I have now sent an email type advice to Support.
Noting that only Noel and yourself responded on this topic, maybe they will think its an Aussie thing.
What I did add in my email was that I think it is better when Support closely monitors the Forum as the used to, and jumps in with answers where necessary. Peter still comments occasionally but I have not seen anyone from Support for a while.
Callie still realises the importance of the forum with her marketing messages.
Got an email back from Kent in support. He's aware of your report also and this thread (thanks). He's identifying that your method and my method of transposing are different. I was a little confused with some comments so sent a reply back and I've included a sample song and a number of clarifications, which hopefully will clear up any confusion.
Stand by
Trev
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
When a song is transposed using 'Transpose and Set Key Signature', any previous changes made to a key at a particular bar by using F5 don't get transposed. So imagine we have a song written in C, and bar 5 shows Key Signature Change to F. If the entire song is then transposed to F using 'Transpose and Set Key Signature', bar 5 still shows "Key Signature Change to F" (not Bb which I what is had expected).
Therefore, the chart is now unreadable (IMO) as it doesn't show a key change to Bb and doesn't show a Bb or an Eb on the stave. I'm putting in a wishlist item, I hope others give it the tick of approval! The current way is not a bug, but I think it could be improved upon.
Trev
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
Just to be clear, the "Transpose and Set Key Signature" method is different from what Graham was doing, which was visually transposing the chords and notation using Notation Window Options.
Graham's method is for transposing leadsheets for non-concert key instruments, and should have adjusted the key changes as expected, as it's a relative change (transpose everything by +2 semi-tones).
"Set key signature" transposes the music and sets the initial key signature to an absolute value (C, F, etc), which can still be overridden by Bar Settings changes (which are also absolute values).
I've passed along a detailed explanation of both issues to the development team, but wanted to clarify on here that they're slightly different.
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