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Inspired by eastside eddie, I am trying to finish mixing my songs for my CD (that I have been putzing around on for a couple of years at least!). I loaded in about 6 or 7 Jimmy Buffet songs from A1A and White Sports Coat amongst my tunes so I could get a relative feel for the sounds and levels. fergetaboutit! Those JB tunes just sound wonderful. Perfectly mixed, you can hear everything and they have a "sheen" to them that I can't get. Plus they are great songs! My songs just have a "dullness" about them I can't shake. Oh well, what can you do except press forward, I do realize that they were recorded and mixed in a fine studio and mixed and mastered by folks who knew what they were doing (and on analog, of course). This doesn't do a wav file justice, but here's a sample song: My Lovely Lady by JB. By the way, I do believe that is Steve Goodman playing the acoustic lead stuff. Maybe I will load some versions to Soundcloud and ask a few folks to do 30 second tests and see what they think.
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Eddie trusted other ears to mix and master his CD. He concentrated on getting clean, good tracks with headroom.
So write the best songs you can, record them the best you can, make judicious real track choices and find the best person you can to mix and master it.
Charlie
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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I loaded in about 6 or 7 Jimmy Buffet songs from A1A and White Sports Coat amongst my tunes so I could get a relative feel for the sounds and levels. Sounds like a great start. Let's talk about the "dullness" a bit more. One common problem is that as you add tracks, low frequencies start piling up, and cause a sort of "muddiness" that might be like what you're describing. One simple solution to this is to add a high-pass to all your tracks, to cut out the low end junk. Have a look here for a free plugin, as well as a video explaining the hows and whys about using them. As the video points out, dial the high pass until you hear it, and then dial it back a bit. If the instruments are well recorded (as BiaB already is), that may be the only effect you need. But make sure you put it on all your tracks, because you're not just cleaning up that track, but the sum effect of all the tracks together.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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My songs just have a "dullness" about them I can't shake. Oh well, what can you do except press forward,
I do realize that they were recorded and mixed in a fine studio and mixed and mastered by folks who knew what they were doing
It takes time and education.... mostly by doing, to get better. Gear actually has very little to do with it. A good engineer on a laptop with a good basic DAW and stock plug ins can make an impressive sounding mix. Don't fret.... keep working. What other forums besides here do you frequent and or participate in?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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... So write the best songs you can, record them the best you can, make judicious real track choices and find the best person you can to mix and master it. Ha, ha: if you mean the "best person you can to mix and master it" and do it for free -- well I think that is me! --------------------------------------------------------------------- ... Let's talk about the "dullness" a bit more.
...
One simple solution to this is to add a high-pass to all your tracks, to cut out the low end junk. Yes, I got turned on to that high pass filter thing a few years. An excellent tip and it does make quite a difference! -------------------------------------------------------------------- ... It takes time and education.... mostly by doing, to get better. Gear actually has very little to do with it. A good engineer on a laptop with a good basic DAW and stock plug ins can make an impressive sounding mix.
Don't fret.... keep working. What other forums besides here do you frequent and or participate in? I usually hang out at jpfolks.com and then the FAWM.org and 50/90 songrwriting challenge sites. The good news is that I stumbled on an old mix of a song of mine and it has definitely improved in the newer version. New vocals, but the instrumentation is the same (I think). --------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to those who chimed in!
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Kevin, you might want to check out the Recording Revolution: http://therecordingrevolution.com/Graham has an excellent blog and tutorials on mixing and recording. I have learned a lot reading the blog and watching the tutorials.
I haven't lost all of my marbles but there is a small hole in the bag someplace!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Kevin, I know you've been doing this for some time, so I won't insult your intelligence with my take on mixing - but - There is a really useful interactive chart that can come in really handy when mixing instruments/voices. If you hover over the instument, it will give you the fundamentals, harmonics, etc. Thought it might be of interest. http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htmRegards, Bob
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Graham is a great resource. I have watched a lot of his 5-minute video series and a lot of his other stuff. I also have his "jumpstart" series. I have the tools and some knowledge -- but it still is tough (ha, ha) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes that is a handy dandy reference. I've seen it before, but not lately. Always good to keep those things in mind. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ** OK, so I loaded up my current CD songs as 256kbs MP3 files at soundcloud. Here is the collection address: Crows Say What?. I think all you have to do is listen to 20, 30 or 40 seconds of any (or all) of the tunes to see what I have going on now. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Kevin As yoda would say: "Mixing jedi yet you are not."
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Opinions are like #%>€s everybody has one so here's mine  Most recently I've found that Waves' multiband compressor will make a mix really "pop." A user here Tommyad put me onto it and I found it for $29. Google Waves LinMB and Adele. There's a great YouTube vid where her producer describes her reaction to it on a mix. I have some info on how to set it up on a mix in about 5 minutes if you ever end up with it. Our last 4-5 projects have nothing for mastering but the following in this order EQ > LinMB > Ozone's limiter. FWIW Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos
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Sounds like you've got all the obvious stuff covered!  So I guess the next thing is to start posting some example mixes and/or stems, and see if anyone wants to either offer specific advice, or have a crack at the mix and hopefully explain what they did so you could duplicate it. Of course, every mix is different, and everyone's opinion of what the mix should sound like is going to differ. But if you start from the basis of "Why is this mix dull", or "Why doesn't this mix pop", you might get something that you could generally apply. Otherwise, your other option is (as previously mentioned) to hand the mix over to someone who's got the skill to take it to the next level. I'd prefer you take the former route, only because it would benefit me personally, because I'd learn something from all this.  But given that you're past the basics, I suspect that's not really what's needed here.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Janice & Bud: I actually have the Waves LinMB plugin. But I tend to use the L3 which has a multiband compressor and limiter built into one. Maybe I should try the LinMB and just use the L2 limiter. I loaded up the LinMB, but maybe I do need some instructions on it! dcuny: I've loaded up the CD songs at soundcloud here: https://soundcloud.com/kevin-emmrich/sets/crows-say-what I think just a 20 or 30 second listen to some songs would be more than enough to hear what is going on. By the way, when I listen to my list of songs, they don't sound too bad by themselves. It is just when I follow one of my tunes with a reference track that I hear the differences. Maybe I am 80-90% there, but that last 10% or so is just a huge gulf!
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Kevin...
You are being WAY too hard on yourself!
I listened to all 14 songs. The beginning and then bits and pieces of each. They sound good. Crisp, in fact, not DULL at all. Your sound is consistent throughout - very Americana sounding. If anything there is not as much bottom as one might want (the bass never says "I'm here!"), but that is not necessarily a bad thing for the type CD this is.
floyd
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It is just when I follow one of my tunes with a reference track that I hear the differences. This is a good practice. It keeps you honest with your work, however you are comparing a 'mx' with a mastered piece. IMO, Your mixes just need mastering (and a little more dynamic headroom for such). The 'mix' aspect is just fine.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Here's my totally non-professional opinion: The Bup Bup Song buries the vocal A Little Bit of Loving is better until 1:50, and again buries the vocal until the final verse comes in. Slightly Out of Phase starts fine, but as you add instruments, the vocal gets more and more buried. Hey Hey is great. I Think I Found Love also has a nice mix. This is Her Weekend has spots where the vocal gets buried. Thunderbord Hotel (typo?) is loud, but perhaps a bit overly compressed, depending on the sound you're going for. Note a theme here? I don't think the mix is dull. In fact, there are a number of instruments I'd make a bit less bright, using my totally-non-professional opinion. What are you hearing in the Jimmy Buffet mix you're not hearing in your own?
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Floyd: Thanks for the kind words. Ya know, I was starting to feel good about my mixes -- and then I did that reference track comparison again. It is not that I don't think my songs are OK -- they just don't run with the big dogs! I am happy that my overall volume is in-line with Buffet's tunes and not too far off some other references I am using.
About a month ago, my nephew said the same thing about the bass and I have been trying to remix all the bass parts since then. It still looks like I have a bit more to go. The sound spectrum shows that I have more than enough bottom end, so I guess it is just the clarity of the bass parts themselves. I'll see what I can do, but I might be at the limit here.
rharv: I do have a compressor (waves SSL), a stereo imager (waves S1-Shuffler) and a multi-band limiter (wave L3 MultiMaximizer) on the master buss, so it seems I have some mastering tools, but maybe I need to use them better. What would ozone do for me that those items can't, I wonder?
David: Interesting that you think the vocals are a bit buried here and there throughout the mixes. I thought they might be too loud (ha, ha). Maybe it is my singing style, timbre and "power" that is the issue. Maybe I can try some more EQ on the lead vocal as a test. Unfortunately, since I know what is being sung, it will be hard for me to be objective!
"What are you hearing in the Jimmy Buffet mix you're not hearing in your own?" -- That's a good question (ha, ha). If I knew the answer to that, I might be able to fix it!) It might be just a simple as better songs with better performances -- and the dynamic range is wonderful.
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Regarding Ozone, it has these three tools, plus a few more all in one VST. It's not that Waves tools aren't good (they are), but the fact that Ozone has all of them in one tool (plus more) with tons of presets that give you very good starting points right off the bat. You don't have to start from scratch figuring out how one is affecting the other .. The interaction between the Loudness, Multiband compressor, EQ, Exciter,StereoImager, etc are all set up well in the presets at the git-go. From there you adjust each to suit.
I also like the user experience and visual feedback better in Ozone.
Like I said in my PM, be forewarned; once you use the trial version be prepared to buy or suffer withdrawal.
.. and I agree the vocals could be a little more out front, especially if trying to mimic buffet.
Last edited by rharv; 09/26/15 02:14 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Regarding Ozone, it has these three tools, plus a few more all in one VST. It's not that Waves tools aren't good (they are), but the fact that Ozone has all of them in one tool (plus more) with tons of presets that give you very good starting points right off the bat. You don't have to start from scratch figuring out how one is affecting the other .. The interaction between the Loudness, Multiband compressor, EQ, Exciter,StereoImager, etc are all set up well in the presets at the git-go. From there you adjust each to suit.
I also like the user experience and visual feedback better in Ozone.
Like I said in my PM, be forewarned; once you use the trial version be prepared to buy or suffer withdrawal.
.. and I agree the vocals could be a little more out front, especially if trying to mimic buffet. Rharv, are your referencing the regular suite of Ozone 6 at the $250 price or the higher priced Ozone 6 Advanced $999? It's obvious which is better, but my question is that for those of us that are hobbyist's, is there enough of the advantages of Ozone regular to be cost effective as it seems the Advanced would be geared toward the professional market. Like Kevin, I have a mastering software bundled with Studio One 2 but have not found that I am proficient enough to manually master any song to a commercial sound. I know that other forum members such as Guitarhacker and Janice and Bud also recommend Ozone, but I've never heard them state which version.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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...the regular suite of Ozone 6 at the $250 price or the higher priced Ozone 6 Advanced $999? The regular suite is all you need. It is incredibly simple to use. Merely selecting a preset will cover your needs 95% of the time - and you will likely settle on 2 or 3 that you use all the time (at least in Ozone 5 - I assume 6 is basically the same though I heard once that the presets changed?). You can also delve deeper into it and learn as you go - 6 different modules - but, as I said before, you can use it "right out of the box". It should be everyone's 2nd purchase (after BIAB) before ever buying ANY other plugins.
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Let me suggest what I heard in the Jimmy Buffet mix vs. your mixes. The YouTube compression could be coloring my impression, but whatever... First, up front and center is the vocal. I didn't hear that in all your mixes, and where I did, they often felt compressed. By the way, your harmonies sound fantastic. If you're trying to match what other people do, though, I suspect you'll need to dial them back a bit. It kills me to hear that in a song, but everything is subservient when it comes to the lead. Next, it's surprising how much space there is in the Buffet mix. When the instruments do play, they pay attention to each other and (mostly) stay out of the way. You do this quite effectively in some of your songs. It might be the YouTube compression, but the background instruments really are background instruments. They don't stand out, and are relatively quiet. In the Buffet mixes, the instruments feel natural. That is, they sound loud because it feels like the musician is playing loudly. They are soft because they are soft, or they're turned down. In contrast, there are places in some of your mixes where the instruments sound hot - turned up too high. I don't hear that in the Buffet mix. It sounds like the vocal in the Buffet mix is actually dialed back a bit. You obviously can't do that. You are a soft singer, and the arrangement needs to support that. To me, the goal of the arrangement is to make you (the vocalist) sound awesome. And a lot of the times, they do. Because one size fits many, but that only gets you part of the way there. Once you're 90% of the way there, I think the other 90% is tailoring the mix to that particular song. Make sure there's one focal point at any one time, and when that vocal/instrument is the star, make sure that there's nothing that's casting shade on it. But to run with the "big dogs", you'll probably have to get another pair of ears working with you, because you're already very good. That's my totally-non-professional opinion, anyway.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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The regular one will suffice for the described need.
As mentioned, you'll be surprised how easy it is for even a beginner to get very good results.
The only other thing you could use to honestly compare your finished product to commercial ones (besides your ears) is a good metering plugin.
I've mentioned PARMeter before. If you can find it anywhere it gives some pretty interesting stats/views/readings.
I should try to email Jeff and see if I can share it, as it is no longer available for sale.
I read once it was because it didn't play nice with 64 bit OS, but it runs just fine here.
However 'it must be used as a "master insert" and will not work as a "send effect"'
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
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