PG Music Home Forums PG Music Wishlists Band-in-a-Box Wishlist Quartal Harmony

Band in a Box has a few flaws I don't like.
1) You can't assign parent scale to chord progression, it seems you should be able to assign melodic minor, harmonic minor, harmonic major or simple things like dorian or lydian to progressions, otherwise how can it know what notes to add.
2)no support for quartal harmony
3)no support for quartal harmony in odd scales like melodic minor or harmonic minor.
4) Voice leading is not very good in many cases (want oblique, and contrary motion)
4) b5 substitutions taken from corresponding melodic minor scale, you can fake out Band in a box by typing aFlat maj\min over G for b5 dominate chord.

so Dm, aFlat maj\min over G, cmaj7 would be the ii V I
Many of these things I have figured out how to do, on my own

5) I don't like real tracks I want MIDI tracks, MIDI is more flexible for professional tweaking

I have a lot of good ideas but I just don't want to give them away for nothing.

Because it doesn't do something you want, surely doesn't make it a 'flaw'?


And that's perfectly OK, too.

Not supporting Quartal Harmony is a flaw (limitation), not supporting Melodic minor, Harmonic minor and other exotic scales is a flaw (limitation). Having non-scale-able software is bad, I am not sure how the transpose works without midi I think it is impossible to have good voice leading, so I don't thing drooping support for midi is good idea, I don't think I am wrong.

So sorry that you don't like Real Tracks. All you have to do is ignore them like I do midi tracks. Real Tracks have been the biggest innovation since they've been added. Where else can you get a world class rhythm section with Kenny Barron, Ron Carter and Lewis Nash backing you up?

Yes I think real tracks are nice in their own way but why don't U generate MIDI data from them, MIDI data is so much easier to tweek and modify, generally I never use straight Band in Box midi, I use it for the drums and for variation but something original is always implanted inside my Band in a box MIDI tracks, I use Karma, Korg Karma is not hassle free but it will support Quartal Harmony and other exotic stuff that band in box can't handle, I realize I may be outside mainstream a little, but from a academic perspective I think my ideas have real value. I could paste in samples of what i am talking about but I don't think that is allowed. Some of my harmonic ideas come from Mick Goodrick which is sort of like Allan Holdsworth where traditional chord symbols don't really work, many of the chord do not contain the root because the idea is the bass supplies the root. Some of the ideas are explained in (Generic Modality Compression) Creative Harmony by Mick Goodrick and Tm Miller, but there is some overlap with the concepts of Allan Holdsworth and Quartal Harmony and the concept of chord cycles. There is a way for Band in a Box to support it, I am programmer, I wrote a program that makes pdf diagrams (dots on a fretboard) of my concepts that could be translated to Midi data.

How do U do a tune like 'Impressions' or 'So What' in Band in a box, the chords are Quartal Harmony, typing in Dm7, Db Minor works some what for bass but no at all for Harmony.

Also U have 2 choices of for harmony:
Quartal harmony in parallel motion or
Quartal Harmony in classical harmony (oblique, contrary) Motion and then there is 3rd option
(Generic Modality Compression) harmony. Again this is not supported at all.

Just to be clear doing 'So What' in Band in a box is a hassle, the melody is in the bass for part of the song so U have to edit the bass track, so if U use real tracks U have to delete audio? this is nightmare, deleting MIDI is easy, U can use band in a box for most of the song and delete the part where melody is in the bass. U can edit velocity (so that volume is right) because it midi, U can replace the keyboard with real Quartal harmony it is not that bad but if your in the audio world it is total nightmare. This is why real tracks should be convertible to MIDI, MIDI is way more flexible in terms of computational editing, also U should support more advanced concepts like Quartal Harmony and different scale types.

Welcome. I believe I follow what you are saying, but you might be more clear by providing some examples of which you speak. Post some graphic files somewhere on the Internet (for example, Dropbox) and include links to them in your posts here. It is not only 'allowed' but illustrative.

When I do a song in BIAB such as So What, I write the melody as MIDI in the Melody or Harmony track, assign a patch to a nice acoustic bass, and mute the RealTrack playing bass during the playing of this melody.

BIAB is not without any support for quartal harmony, as it supports Sus4, m11, 69 and 13th chords, all essential in quartal harmony. And slash roots can get you even further.

But go ahead and post some ideas. That's what this forum is for.

What version and package do you have of BiaB?
I have about 4,500 styles, and I guess at least half of those (maybe more) are using MIDI tracks.
As Matt mentions, Slash Roots will give you further variations. Did you use those, and did they assist?

I have 77 style disks, yes they are cool, i used them for very long time now.
But now band in a box is moving away from MIDI
I probably have first or 2nd version of Band in a Box (DOS)

Matt i don't see any way to upload pdfs
and rules strictly said you can't add links.

Technically speaking Quartal harmony does not contain 3rds so Dm11 is not exactly the same as So What Chord c,f,b,e over a d bass,

if I used band in a box i would type in dm11 or dm69 then replace all the chords with my own and keep the bass line and drums, yes it can be done.

but what happens if you want to write a modal tune in melodic or harmonic minor
you can't

1:
Is that the one you are using now, or was that the first one you purchased and you're using a later version now?

2:
I'm pretty sure that MIDI will always be an inherent and integral part of Band In A Box. I don't think PGM have moved away from MIDI, I think moreover that they have added other features as well.

I have version 14 but I use 12, seems all new features are real track related, not sure I will upgrade anymore as only a few new super midi styles are added, all the new styles are real-tracks (as far as I can tell), I don't like 14 but maybe its not set up right, it defaults to real tracks.

I make music this way
Generate midi track
Tweek midi track
add audio last in pro-tools.

Even if I use straight up BiaB I export the midi.
Play it in midi software, where I can fine tune what I like. Once it is created it is exported, if the arrangement changes which it normally does I go back to Band in a box and change it. Rinse and repeat until it is done then add guitar parts last in Pro tools, or make a live video playing to the MIDI track. I am pretty sure what I am doing is more complicated that what the average user is doing.

You and I use almost the same workflow! Virtually all of my original music is MIDI based. I get a chord progression and style into BiaB then transfer it to Sonar where I tweak the MIDI tracks that I plan on keeping. Many MIDI tracks are deleted and replaced by a couple of other musicians and myself.

There are a number of us who either use mostly MIDI or add a MIDI track to supplement RTs. However I get the impression that the majority of BiaB users are now using RTs, thus PGMusic's emphasis is on them and not MIDI. I don't blame PGMusic, after all they must sell a product that appeals to the majority of their user base. I also don't think that they are abandoning MIDI, SuperMIDI tracks come to mind, but it currently not their prime market.

On a side note Melodyne has a couple of programs that will take audio and convert it to MIDI. I have Melodyne Editor and that will take either monophonic or polyphonic audio and transcribe it to MIDI. They also offer less expensive versions that only transcribes monophonic. I have used the Editor to convert RTs to MIDI and it does a very good job. You might want to look into it.

Good luck.

What rules? We do it all the time. Maybe you know something we missed...

Yeah it is more logical to start with MIDI and add audio last, I Melodyne but have not used it yet.

Here is a sample of what Band in a box does not support

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNsaos5eACU

Band in box kicks in at 1:32

The chords prior to that have very good voice leading (based on mathematics) and some quartal chords, so I used Korg Karma arpeggiator.

This one is more professional
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjZvp92iO0I

3/4 is band in a box but bass is tweeked to follow the lead sheet.
You can tell at 7:08 that is not BiaB. Some of the harp sounds are Korg Karma generated.

Yes, those were beautiful and helpful.

I'm wondering if someone here who writes user styles for BIAB could clarify whether what is being requested can be solved by a user-created style. In any event, my sense is that this wish belongs more in the Styles & RealTracks Wishlist forum. I don't see why BIAB couldn't play like this, especially in MIDI, if there were a style written to do so. Am I correct, or is there something fundamental lacking in the architecture of BIAB?

Here are 2 more samples
Melodic Minor in quartal harmony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNN-xBpQ4_0
Notice there is no parallel motion in the voice leading, I think there are always 1 or 2 common tones,

I figured out how to do this in any key for
Harmonic Minor
Harmonic Major
Melodic Minor
and of course regular type scale (like C or Am white keys)
in all keys
it generates a pdf of the chords with dots where to put your fingers
it's all based on mathematics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBDljehWySY

this is another one notice how voice leading is very smooth
I am not sure what this is exactly, but I have similar things in pdf format, it will sound like Bach if you voice lead right (for simple triads)

I would prefer to make MIDI output

also I figured out how to do this type of thing:

Google

Creative Chordal Harmony for Guitar: Using Generic Modality Compression

You will see U tube videos on it, I wrote a song using it but I have not recorded it.

I typed in Em9#5 in band in a box then replaced all the chords with clusters that do not contain the root. It sounds sort of like Allan Holdsworth but not exactly. It is mathematical logarithm approach to harmony.

These type of sounds are based on modes so the best way would be type in E Lydian in band in a box then select what type of chords, Generic Modality Compression, 4 note Quartal, 3 note Quartal, Quartal , etc ...

I know it can be done because I do it now but in PDF guitar grid output not MIDI.

Hope that helps

Here is a lesson on Quartal Harmony
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPLrTbdr9mQ

Yes these are beautiful, plus you are an excellent guitarist. If I may ask how do you like the Fly?

I agree with Matt that you should put in a request in the Styles wishlist forum. Also you may want to check with Notes Norton,
http://nortonmusic.com/
as he may have some styles like this. You may want to request that he make some if indeed these style types can be make for BiaB.

The fly is OK, it has very good neck, but it has sort of strange unnatural sound. I like it, it is my main practice guitar, I doubt if I will make videos with it anymore

I do not agree that this is just a new style, first off you have to assign a parent scale instead of assuming everything is western scale, 2nd you have to assign Quartal to the chord type, the chords are stacked 4th and 5ths as in Love Supreme, basically this is 2 chord song.

Flamenco Sketches is based on stacking the scale in 4ths and 5ths, yes Cma7 G7sus is a good approximation but it is a approximation the real magic is doing it right, other wise you won't get that mysterious sound, I think I know how to do it but won't give it away.


I got this off the internet,

JoeB
May 14th, 2009, 07:19 PM
Bill Evan's liner notes on the Kind of Blue album describe the tune Flamenco Sketches as: "a series of five scales, each to be played as long as the soloist wishes until he has completed the series".

The book Kind of Blue (The Making of the Miles Davis Masterpiece) by Ashley Kahn shows a long-lost photograph of Cannonball's music stand that a recording engineer in the studio took the day Flamenco Sketches was recorded. On the stand is a piece of staff paper with the scales written out in Bill's handwriting.

It unfortunately has the middle of two of the scales obscured by the horn's mouthpiece cover, and the accompanying book text seems to name two of the scales incorrectly. Based on enlarging the picture, accounting for alto sax transposition, listening to the recorded lines, etc. I get the following basic chord to scale series for "Flamenco Sketches":

|: Cma7 G7sus :| ... C D E F G A B C

|: Ab9sus :| ... Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb

|: Bbma7 F7sus :| ... Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

|: D Eb/D (Dsusb9) :| ... D Eb F# G A Bb C D (soloists sometimes play F instead of F#)

|: G-9 :| ... G A Bb C D E F G

Over the scales, Bill wrote what looks like the instruction to "play in the sound of these scales". Bill only wrote out the scale notes, not the chords; nor did he name the scales.

It's great fun to try to come up with nice melodies given the tune itself has no theme. If anyone has access to this book or experience playing the tune I'd be interested in your take on the scales and chords.