PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production How to avoid sounding like Karaoke when singing/playing along to BIAB

Hi

Any suggestions. I recorded myself playing and singing along to backing tracks and it was a bit karaoke like. I could play live and get condenser mikes etc, but I like plugging straight into my audio interface with the mic and guitar. I tried adding reverb to the voice and that seemed to help, but I hate my voice floating in too much reverb. Any other suggestions. I'm playing around with the mix etc and all my guitar and voice is going through the TC Helicon voiceLive 2 so I have heaps of options. Just lack knowledge / skill in this area. It doesn't sound bad, just not mixed well and that is what I hope you guys can advice me on. Ta muchly.

There could be any number of things at play here.

First... avoid using the TC Helicon V2 on the vocals and guitars. You want to have the voice essentially un-effected by anything other than some reverb and EQ. 99% of the time, if you add FX to try to make something better, or hide a bad performance, it's a clear indication that the underlying track is poorly recorded and the FX are an attempt to get an easy fix. Inevitably, the end result is worse than the original. It's always better to let the warts show and work on solving the foundational issues.

Second... what kind of backing are you using? I know it's BB but are you using a midi style or is it a style that uses real tracks? Midi tracks will sound stiff and un-natural, even with the best singers.

Third... how are you mixing the vox into the BB tracks? The vocal track needs to sit in a certain place in the mix and really needs to sound like it's a part of, and not apart from, the mix. Too loud, or too soft and there are problems.

Fourth... the reverb you use should have the effect of making everything come together in a cohesive unit. It should sound like it was all recorded in the same room, at the same time, by the same musicians. Every now and then I hear a song in the Showcase that sounds like the singer was in a different room from the band.

Getting this all balanced will take time and experimentation. Perhaps take the time to post a song here if it's something you're not ready to "Showcase" quite yet. There's no problem posting a song here when you're looking for MIXING AND PERFORMANCE feedback. That's what this forum is for.

It's easier to give accurate feedback when we can hear what you're talking about. That way, we can give specifics for you to try and work on. And... you can ask specific questions and point to parts of the song as needed so that you can get the information you need to make the mix sound better.

That's good advice from Herb and I always follow threads about the karaoke sounding BIAB productions because it seems to be a main theme and criticism among some musicians to disparage the product and as a discussion topic in other forums.

Trying to be speculative and not critical, it appeared to me from what I could glean from your post that your set up and production replicated a typical Karaoke set up that coupled with a typical out of the box generated BIAB track is going to yield a karaoke sounding track. Backing tracks/karaoke is a major feature of BIAB and very easy and quick to obtain. "Enter the chords of your song, set your key and tempo and hit play. It's just that easy."

Ever heard that before? And (Chuckles), it's even easier with a midi style....

It is so, so easy to sit back and let BIAB do all the work by generating your music. It does so quickly, efficiently and easy. What happens when you do that though is BIAB algorithms are making production decisions and dictating the sound rather than you. I personally struggle when writing within BIAB, experimenting with various instruments and styles, that sometimes I lose the song in my head. That's also easy to do.

The magic of Band in a Box is not the program, the magic is you.

The forum threads are useful as learning tools and one thing beyond Herb's excellent advice on mixing and recording that I recommend is to take advantage of the forum to learn the tips, tricks and techniques of the members songs posted in the User Showcase that you admire and desire for your BIAB songs to sound like. I don't have the musicianship and vocal ability of some, actually most, of the forum members but I can learn to program and use BIAB like they do. You can too.

A better sounding BIAB production is not dependent on how well you sing, play or write. The foundation of every BIAB produced song is always and singularly, the structure of the song. If you pick a style or individually choose instruments, enter a chord chart, set the tempo and key and hit play. Biab generates your song but does not make tempo changes, mute/unmute parts, modulate the key, do pushes, holds or rests. There are no instruments that have multiple versions generated to copy and past to comp into a single unique track. It's learning to do these things that propels BIAB into the higher level production. Styles, mixing, instrumentation, adding tracks and applying effects all build on whatever foundation you have built for your song or cover....

What helps me to bring my productions beyond the karaoke sounding BIAB song has been to analyze Biab productions posted on the USER SHOWCASE and try to replicate them. Most users post the Biab info with their post which gives me an excellent starting place and I use the Audio Chord Wizard to produce the chord chart and tempo map. The process is similar to a artist trying to duplicate paintings by master artists by creating your own version of the Mona Lisa.

Not enough information. Where, exactly, are you "mixing" the inputs? Real Band or some other DAW? In a mixer through a PA? In the interface?


Regards,

Bob

Adding to what Bob said what styles are you using? If you are using BiaB's stock MIDI files, by stock I mean no additional MIDI nuances, then yes it may sound like Karaoke. If you are using SuperMIDI tracks, modified MIDI tracks and or RTs it should not sound Karaoke. This pertains only to the backing tracks and not in your vocals.

Thanks for all the great advice and taking the time to write so much! It's much quicker to pick your brains than trial and error. My apologies all for not being clearer in my original post. I'm using wave file copies of Realtracks recordings. I've done nothing to the Realtracks except render them after deciding on the backing chords endings, breaks etc. They are a work in progress and I now think they are a bit too busy in places. I don't use midi backing for the reasons mentioned.

I'm not actually recording songs yet for public consumption, but I am using Debut (a software product) to record my own performance as I want to improve my show on streetjelly.com. It's very educational - I seem to have forgotten how to smile and sing with energy - I guess cos it's not live!

I have the Voicelive 2 going for harmonies etc. Most of the time I just use the preset settings for adaptive voice correction and adaptive tone control. I turned down a lot of the compression on the adaptive tone control as I felt it zapped the richness of a baritone voice. I'm not using any special effects on the Voicelive 2 except some Reverb that I have increased and harmonies that I kick in only on the chorus of Stand by Me. The electric guitar is a bit thin, so I might use the through channel on the Voicelive 2 and use my Neva guitar effects unit. I am switching between acoustic and electric. House of the rising sun is acoustic as is money. Sweet Home Chicago and Stand by Me are on electric.

In a live setting, I could fiddle with the PA and may or may not sound better!

Anyway, I've recorded 4 songs today (public holiday) and fiddled with levels and reverb, so they're improving. I realise they backing tracks are a bit busy if I play guitar. I got a bit carried away with BIAB orchestration

Money (Raw nothing but me and guitar - as a kind of yardstick)
https://soundcloud.com/salsatomebaby/money
House of the Rising Sun (Acoustic Guitar, BIAB render wave file and vocals, no voice live effects from memory)
https://soundcloud.com/salsatomebaby/house-of-the-rising-sun
Stand By Me (Electric Guitar, BIAB rendered wave file and vocals - including voicelive 2 effects such as reverb and harmony on choruses)
https://soundcloud.com/salsatomebaby/stand-by-me
Sweet Home Chicago (Electric Guitar, BIAB rendered wave file and vocals - including some voicelive 2 effects eg reverb
https://soundcloud.com/salsatomebaby/sweet-home-chicago

Neil

Neil,

I think your backing tracks sound fine. As for your vocals, I would use the Voicelive 2 for some verb and light compression. Your vocals sound really low in the mix.


Regards,

Bob

Sweet home Chicago and HOTRS. Vocals sound good (clear and clean)to me and suite you laid back styling! Good luck with finding the right mix.

I don't think you have any major issues there. The tracks and vox and the mix mostly sound fairly good.

I think the karaoke thing comes from the style you might have selected. I noticed this especially on HOTRS. The STYLE you choose really, really matters. Kind of a lounge lizard version of the song. Of course that's just my humble opinion. A typical Holiday Inn lounge band version.

It can also come from not selecting a style that is in the middle of the parameters specified for the tracks and style. You will notice that the tracks (real tracks) indicate a minimum and a maximum tempo. Going as close to the recommended tempo as indicated, rather than towards either end or outside of the parameters will give you a better sounding track.

Quite often, I have to search for a different track. For example the sax in HOTRS is not happy at that tempo. I would either find a better one that plays well at that tempo or eliminate the sax and use a different fill/solo instrument in the song.

When I work on a cover tune (which I rarely do) I try to be as faithful to the original as possible and yet, still incorporate my personal touch into the song. Doing covers is tricky. It's easy to be cheesy.... but it takes some effort to really make a better version of the cover than everyone is used to hearing.

Thanks everyone. I spent the day messing around with the levels and keep finding all sorts of new issues to address. Certainly, I mixed the vocals back on these recordings from previously. I'll continue to fiddle with the compression and reverb. Any suggestions for adding a bit of sparkle to vocals? I know there are post production tools, but I'm thinking of something to add live - Perhaps doubling?

PS I quite like the idea of being a 'cheezy lounge lizard' provided I get paid! Sadly, some of my backing tracks are insanely busy so they'll be some zapping this weekend and I'll have a look at that saxophone - which I rather liked - but I am a bit cavalier with the tempo recommendations.

The Silver Lizard

Lol...

As far as sparkle to the vox... Ozone is an easy way to add sparkle and life to vocals as well as the entire mix. It is, quite amazing. Of course, you can also do the same thing manually with any good EQ.

I'd personally stay away from doubling. Unless it is a very subtle doubling that is more layering than doubling. Most songs do not benefit from doubling the vox.

It's been said, hey, call me anything you want except late for dinner.... and I'm in agreement on the whole get paid thing. I overheard a conversation one time in a sleazy hole in the wall dump of a club....

"how can you stand to play here?"
"they pay good..... btw, where's your band playing tonight?"
end of conversation.

lol

Getting a much nicer mix now when playing live on www.streetjelly.com. Thanks guys.

I tend to think the MIDI tracks sound less like karaoke.

The RTs sound so much like a pre-recorded backing track that they tend to shout "Karaoke" while the MIDI tracks sound more synth like - as a real small act would.

Also with MIDI you can pump up the snare (if necessary) or anything else for more of a live balance than a pre-recorded balance.

I've been gigging with tracks that I make myself since 1985 http://www.s-cats.com and I've tried MIDI, RTs, and even purchased Karaoke Tracks, and found MIDI to be the least karaoke sounding and the most customizable.

Of course, that depends on good sound modules and some skill on your part.

Here is how I do it:
http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html

That's my $.02 anyway

Insights and incites by Notes

It is interesting to read Notes notes on making his backing tracks.

I have recently developed more interest to the midi side of Band in a Box along with the purchase of the Roland Integra 7 sound card.
I have read his process from his web site in the past but it was good to review again today.

One question for Notes about his making MP3's from his wave file. In your description you say that you process the MP3 "at 192Kbps and the highest quality settings."

Can you expound on that a bit? Why 192bps rather than 320bps and what other "highest quality settings" do you change?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Charlie

Likewise, I found your notes on backing tracks a great read. Obviously oozing with experience and knowledge and some great tips for an aged newbie like myself. I admit I have a soft spot for midi files. Van Basco has provided me with a lot of entertainment over the years and there are some amazing midi and .kar files out there.

Sadly, my time line is similar and I recognise a lot of the gear, but I never played live on my own before. I started playing in a band with a Moog and DX7s were the latest and greatest. I gave away my original Akai Sampler. Somewhere along the line I lost my Juno 6 and someone stole my Marshall stack (lol). I couldn't even get the synths to stay in tune.... I got fired by a group for getting too many gigs. Then life and family took over.

Not much brighter now, I sit here looking at my unused Boss looper, my hardly used guitar synth, my Edirol Sound Canvas and I've given up on the 10 year project to ever use Sampletank samples live having raced out and got the original Omnisynth package. What sad reading this makes, except that BIAB 2015 (Yes, I had an early version that I never used!) has got me up and playing and singing with Realtracks. It may not be perfect, but it's perfect for me at the moment. But I admit it, I still go and hunt through the midi files from time to time. Also I love your BIAB files......

Nice.... if I was playing live now, that's exactly how I would have the stage gear set up.

2 computers dedicated to the job playing high quality MP3 files. keep it simple.

I think Guitarhacker has nailed it. Your perception of 'karaoke' is possibly more of an arrangement issue, not so much a mix issue.

House of the Rising Sun for example. The famous Animals version of this song uses what some would say a light 6/8 that has a swing to it, but all of the instrumentation supports the 6/8 feel, even the rather loud organ parts.

Herb also pointed this out: The tracks you have chosen for instrumentation do not sit well with each other in 6/8 and at that tempo. Specifically the clavinet track is being used at a much slower tempo than the original most likely, I'm guessing over 10 bpm slower than the orginal RT. This lends to the plodding nature of it's sound, where clavinet often drives the song along when used as a rhythm instrument. Here, the opposite effect occurs.

The last arrangement 'oops' are that the sax and harmonica solo over top of your vocals. This isn't the way a band would behave; at least a good band. A band that has no awareness of the other players in the band might behave this way, but not in a tight band that is cooking and supporting a vocalist. The great bands know when to stay out of the way of the vocalist. You have to 'conduct' the lead instrument tracks in the same way. 'Tell' them to lay out by mixing them out unless it's a clear space for a solo. How often did Clarence Clemmons play over top of Bruce Springsteen's vocals? Almost NEVER. And yet, he is identified as one of the best rock-band sax players of all time. This live video of "Born To Run" is maybe the best example of this: https://youtu.be/IxuThNgl3YA Note how you only hear the sax significantly in the mix is for the solo. Note how much Clarence isn't even playing. When he is playing the mix engineer has his mic turned nearly off for most of the song. And it sounds great. Even though that's Clarence Freaking Clemmons - his level in the mix is buried for the most part, very light in the left channel, but nearly inaudible compared to the vox, piano, drums and guitars which are really driving the song.

In the Animals mix from '64, one could argue that the organ crowds the vocal lines in places but for the most part, when the vocals are featured, the organ at least gets simpler and then goes back to 'grace note festival' mode when the vocals drop out. This might have been prior to easy fading mixing but the mix is handled instead by the instrumentation 'busy-ness' or lack thereof.

Finally, resist the urge to 'over-arrange' just because there's a track available in RT/RB/BIAB.

I counted the following in this song:

Vox
Trombone (for a few bars - maybe this is a trumpet - some type of brass instrument)
Harmonica
Flute (for maybe a 3 bar section)
Saxophone 1
Saxophone 2 (for that really short harmony line you use in the song)
Clavinet
Drums
Bass
Vibraphone (for 2 or 3 bars)
Rhythm guitar
Lead acoustic/nylon string guitar

Even the Animals version had just two guitars, organ, drums, bass and vocals

The 'band' that you present consists of
11 or 12 members, unless there's a guy running around trying to play as many instruments as possible during the song. That's going to lend to an unnatural progression of sonic variety. Cut it down to 4 or 5 'people' and see if that doesn't make it seem more real.

If you are playing the guitar live with your vox and then the rest of these tracks, it presents an unrealistic sonic landscape to the listener - just based on the number of little bits here and there of so many different instruments. Add in the lack of a 'tight' rhythm section, and you have something that all of the mixing in the world will not correct.

Sweet Home Chicago is much much better, with tracks that are congruent, rather than unnatural together. Main criticism there would be to work on how to bring in the song overall. No proper blues rock band is going to side-stick click in the band and then everyone is full bore out of the gate. Replace the side stick count off with a proper drum intro, and then lay off the harp until later. There is one really unrealistic mix/arrangement cue in this one - on the last section, you have TWO different harp players going with the exact same sound, one panned left and one panned right. Ask yourself when the last time you saw/heard a regular blues band do that? Edit one of them out and the song will be better for it. Oh, and where did this sax player all of a sudden come from in the last section? Either use him throughout the track, or again edit out. Edit out first. Is the sax necessary? If not, it's out.

Mix wise, your guitar could benefit from either being mic'ed to get more of the acoustic sound in the recording, or go the opposite and get it dirtier (Amplitube comes with RB correct?), and then your vox level could come up a little and as I believe others have pointed out, some bit of reverb to try to match the 'room' sound that is going with the drums. But not too much. Also consider high-pass filtering your vocals. Start at roughly 100 Hz or so and go up from there until it sounds too thin to your ear and then leave it right there. Our problem that we all deal with at some point in time is that when we mix our own vocals, we often don't hear the 'mud' in the mix of our vocals, because we can't unhear the imbalance toward low frequency part of our voice live. We think it's ok to mix so the voice sounds like it does in our own ears live. Others do not hear the big bias toward low frequencies when they hear you speak or sing. Go ahead and cut out the lows - lots of the lows. Again, cut the lows out until it sounds thin, then leave it there and bring up the level of the vox. You might be surprised what this one thing can do for your mixes of your own voice. I listen back to my mixes sometimes years later, and can identify that I didn't cut out enough lows of my vox. It's that internal conflict of wanting my voice to sound like I hear it instead of what it probably sounds like to others at a socially appropriate distance from my face when I speak or sing.

-Scott

Wow Scott. Thanks for that. So much information to digest. I really appreciate the amount of time and thought you put into your response. I feel a bit guilty now, as I've realised that I put bugger all thought into my backing tracks apart from getting them up and running. A valuable lesson in itself. I'm busy chopping away, getting rid of instruments etc. I'll start to really look at the vocals too. Some backing tracks are back to bass and drums with perhaps one solo section. The vocals thing is so hard to cope with. I don't like my voice much - too choir boy like - due to classical training etc, but other people do like it and the more training I've had the better it's got. I tend to sing too quietly with a mike, but actually I have a loud baritone voice when I feel confident, and that's related to mic control, memorizing the words and music and having everything running smoothly. I find that whilst I'm more critical now of other peoples' voices especially if they are not trained and are straining or out of tune etc, I'm also more critical of my own voice too. Maybe removing the lows was what the Voicelive 2 adaptive tools were trying to do which I felt sounded like compression and hated. I've gone back to factory settings on the Voicelive 2 (lol). It takes so long to grasp this stuff, so I appreciate the amount of experience you and the others are sharing with me. It is appreciated

I'm also planning to switch to Electric guitar with the Nova unit, which means I'll have to go through a mini mixing desk instead of straight into the audio interface, cos I'll need 4 inputs instead of just two. I'm almost afraid to go there.....

Excellent review. Very well thought out and balanced -- Kind of like a good mix.....