New Years Resolution - more midi in my music. Why you ask? Because I want to better understand and better control what is being played. At least I think I do....
I am starting by focusing on Piano and Drums as I feel I have the tools to get a good sound.
Drums I have covered - EZD2 is stepping up to the plate very nice for me. I don't have to rely on any BIAB content for this since I have a pretty good investment in Drum midi.
But Piano is a problem. Right now I will still have to relay highly on available midi content from BIAB.
I have worked with some SuperMidi Tracks and had a bit of success getting some good arrangements and with a good VST the sound is very musical. But the quantity of SuperMidi is limited in BIAB. And the regular MIDI content is not as musical as the SuperMidi. Does that make sense??
So I am about to invest in a full library of Midi content from EZKeys. From an operations perceptive EZKeys is so very much like BIAB, but different. And in the ways different, BIAB is generally better, But it is simply the quality of the midi content that I am trying to optimize. And EZKeys can interface with Reaper just as easy as BIAB.
So any of you mididots have any advice? Is the standard midi content for pianos in BIAB missing in some standard. Is there some metric to measure the quality of the midi? I seem to remember discussion here in the past but didn't pay much attention. Or am I overthinking this whole thing.
I think everyone will have their own "answer". It depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
I am a songwriter. First, foremost, always. I need a "piano player" who does the right thing for the song (the lyric and how it is sung, mainly). The MIDI Supertracks are an INCREDIBLE resource. I use them anytime there is one that fits - because I can use the piano VST of my choosing - which allows more control over the sound (compared to RTs). The RTs are incredible, too - but sometimes when they are "naked" there are "effects" in the recording that I would rather not be there. If there is a companion MIDI Supertrack, problem solved... I would guess that any new piano RealTracks will include a companion MST...
I am currently creating tracks for a new song. I started it in EZKeys. It is a SUPER songwriting tool. The basic library of piano phrases is really nice. (I would LOVE to have all the supplemental packs!). It allows some very nice variety for song construction. I built a piano track in EZKeys and exported the MIDI file... took that into BIAB and added all the other stuff... So, it is... one more tool. BUT... you have got to WANT to put that kind of effort into it - and have a reason to. I have that reason because as a songwriter, I sometimes want a certain "piano player style"... if I were doing backing tracks for guitar soloing (for instance...like eric (f.m.m) does, I would wonder if it was really necessary.... RealTrack pianos would be my choice there...
I'm rambling (as I am prone to do), so I'll stop now... I think the real question comes down to "what are you looking to accomplish" and what effort are you (reasonably) willing to expend...
I am a songwriter. First, foremost, always. I need a "piano player" who does the right thing for the song (the lyric and how it is sung, mainly).
I am a student musician\guitarist. I need to know what the piano player is playing and why he is playing it. If I have control, I want to tell him what to play and how.
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
The MIDI Supertracks are an INCREDIBLE resource.
Agreed.
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
I would guess that any new piano RealTracks will include a companion MST...
I don't know about this "companion MST". I know about the real charts which accompany may RTs, but I thought the midi was not really good for playing. I will look closer at this.
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
I would LOVE to have all the supplemental packs!).
I am looking at a 6 pack for $99.
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
I'm rambling (as I am prone to do), so I'll stop now...
Like music too my ears (but, hell all your stuff is like that to me). Thanks for the input. Making my decision easier.
OK, I have determined that the EZKey Library is all "real player" midi which is equivalent to the BIAB super midi.
I know BIAB is 480PPQ - don't know what EZKeys is.
So do you think that is the primary difference I am experiencing here?
Here's my 2 cents worth, Dan... The problem with most of the midi we find online is that it wasn't played by real people. The reason why that matters is that the best synths have many layers so the sound is different when the velocity is harder or softer. Generated MIDI typically has less variation in the velocity, so it lacks the "real" sound.
This is basically why Notes Nortons styles have been so popular: he played the parts, and the artist's nuances were captured as part of the style.
The MIDI supertracks are the same deal (but the artists are all famous performers), and it sounds like this EZKeys package you are looking at is based on the same advantage.
Capturing the nuances in the MIDI itself is only part of the magic. The playback synth has to be layered enough to reproduce that much nuance. So if you are playing Super Midi Tracks through the basic coyote forte synth, it won't sound as good as it would if you send it through one of the many top-notch synths that are currently available.
After looking at the ad for EZKeys, it looks like they provide the whole package of quality MIDI and a top notch playback synth
Regarding PPQ: in Realband you can set that to whatever you want. Unless your project begins and ends with BIAB, it doesn't matter that its PPQ is, because you'll be rendering the MIDI through a synth at whatever PPQ is in your mixing DAW
If there is a companion MIDI Supertrack, problem solved... I would guess that any new piano RealTracks will include a companion MST...
OK, what is this? I can find no way to export the midi from a Piano RT. Can this be done?
Dan This method may be suitable:
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
OK, that worked. I tried a little different approach with shift-drag and drop but was only getting .wav. This did pull the midi and it was spot on. Thanks
Does the track have a short or long underline below it? (Short was in my example above)
I understand that it only works with RealTracks that have a corresponding RealChart, in which case the track name is green and underlined with a short line. A long line is used for Guitar tracks that have fret information.
If it is RealTracks, but does not have a corresponding RealCharts information, then the track name is green but with no underline at all.
Trev
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
OK great! Yes, you must drop it on the MID quadrant of the drop-box
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
If you have a good piano sound source now you can get some google/bing MIDI piano loops and you will find a number of them. You would need to use these in a DAW and change the notes to match your chords but that is easy to do in MIDI.
I have taken both the standard and super MIDI tracks from BiaB, brought them into my DAW and modified to do exactly what I wanted them to do.
Both of these examples assumes that you know a little music theory but I think you do have such knowledge.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
The one thing I noticed is that the RealTracks I tested with seemed to include the use of Sustain Pedal, while the MIDI output plays more Staccato, as though the Sustain Pedal events have not been captured in the RealCharts (or exported in the MIDI data).
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
If there is a companion MIDI Supertrack, problem solved... I would guess that any new piano RealTracks will include a companion MST...
OK, what is this? I can find no way to export the midi from a Piano RT. Can this be done?
What I meant by "a companion MST" (MIDI SuperTrack) is that as new RealTrack pianos are introduced, they (PGMusic) are capturing the performances both as audio and MIDI and applying the same magic to follow the chords we type in. When we got the RT...
Capturing the nuances in the MIDI itself is only part of the magic. The playback synth has to be layered enough to reproduce that much nuance. So if you are playing Super Midi Tracks through the basic coyote forte synth, it won't sound as good as it would if you send it through one of the many top-notch synths that are currently available.
So, I want to make sure I understand this: If you render to a wave form (such as saving as a wav file in BIAB), the playback synth is going to determine that wave form, correct?
I don't "do" MIDI much, and in fact one of the reasons I love BIAB is that it puts MIDI in a context that I can deal with presently. I have been rendering individual tracks (whether midi or Real) from BIAB to wav, then I deal with the wavs in Reaper. So far I'm loving that approach, and while yes I understand the limitations that approach imposes, it will probably be my main method for a good while. So, I can see that it would benefit me to get the best renders out of BIAB, which brings me to 2 issues being discussed here: having a "top notch" playback synth, and having the highest, or most appropriate, PPQ set properly in BIAB. I understand what PPQ means, it's a measure of resolution, namely quantized duration.
So, I'm asking for advice because I lack confidence in all matters MIDI. Specifically, how/where can I get a (modestly priced?) "top notch playback synth" (I'm assuming this can be had as software, right?) that will make the most of the likes of what I will be working with (Super MIDI tracks, et al), and what would be the best method of setting the PPQ in BIAB (for those occasions that I want to render the waveforms in BIAB). Not to mention, any other issues or obstacles to High Quality for that workflow that I may have overlooked. Thanks in advance!
Edit: addendum: Is EZKeys an example of a top notch playback synth? It has been noted that EZKeys is much more than that, and that EZKeys has some redundancy with BIAB in the songwriter -type functions. So, here's my hope: that there is something out there that is simpler (no extra features; I'm happy with the songwriting utility of BIAB), less expensive, but still high quality, "layered", nuance -capturing.
Last time I looked PGmusic sold a great sounding midi synth module. (Not software) I have a friend here who uses that module to play gigs with. The sound is awesome. He plays a sax along with it.
One of the problems I run into using midi are the guitars. Especially the clean guitar, either, a sound font or a Coyote synth. They all sound like gooey, oily, tin being plucked. The synth module PGmusic sells (sold?) the clean guitar sounds like a strat. A real one. For some reason, unless you purchase one of those midi guitar fonts from some mfgr, the clean guitar is awful. If you use the module then you'll have what you want.
All I have at the moment is the Coyote synth. I can get great sounding pianos in BB or RB. If you want nuances then you can use the "piano roll" sections of BB or RB to get them at no extra cost. Midi is simply data. It's not music. The musical sounds come from the synth be it Coyote, GSWavetable synth or whatever you use.
I don't know if that was helpful but I hope it made some kind of sense.
Russ Anyday above ground is a good day
Computer is Hp Pavillion Vision 6 Ghz quad core AMD processor 8 Gig memory 1 TB hard drive 6 GB hard drive Windows 7 Premium Loose nut behind the keyboard
1) I think they sound better. I have heard piano synths that emulate the sympathetic vibrations of the non-played strings. There isn't a software synth made that can emulate the nuances of a sax as well as the VL70m - period.
2) They do not tax your computer's CPU which gives you two advantages [1] no latency (actually it's about 5ms or less) [2] you can mix and match as many different synths as you want - some of my backing tracks use a half dozen different synths and more than one channel on each
3) They last forever - when the computer OS changes, the hardware synth still works. My DS8, TX81z, DDD5, and MT32 from the 1980s still work, and although some of the sounds are dated, a few others on each synth are unique and great. So as I gain new synths, I add to the collection instead of replacing them
4) Since they don't use the computer's CPU but store a lot of information in ROM, the sounds can be much more complex and realistic.
For a good, all purpose starter hardware synth, I'd recommend the Ketron SD-2 - I believe they are out of production but they pop up on e-bay all the time. For the money, they are good sounding machines.
OK, we are starting to get in the deep end of the pool. That's a good thing. However, I would like to focus us:
Not so much on the Sound Module aspects but more on the Midi Data Itself.
If you are a top notch Talent and you have a quality midi controller or Keyboard, than your midi data can shine (Super Midi Tracks are the case in point). That is not me.
However, when your midi has been generated by a computer program (such as BIAB or countless files available on the web), I think we are all in agreement, there is something missing. Granted, not so much for a rhythm instrument buried in a mix, but for a soloist midi track - something missing indeed.
I want my drums and piano to sparkle as though they are soloists. Midi data can do that, but it has got to be done by Talent. Hence, I got to pay the price. I think the EZKeys material is a source for that material and am about to pull the trigger to find out for sure.
Dan - I don't want to stop you from buying the EZKeys Midi Packs... but... understand, they don't do "soloing". They are generally rhythm phrases... they are very well played - they sound great - and they give you flexibility for different sections... intro, verse, prechorus, chorus outro, etc... generally BIAB pianos have 2 modes (A vs. B), so there is added flexibility.. At a "price" of having to build them yourself (it is not hard, but takes more time than clicking on an RT piano rhythm...)
Dan - I don't want to stop you from buying the EZKeys Midi Packs... but... understand, they don't do "soloing". They are generally rhythm phrases...
Understood. I picked up the "Funk" set when it went on sale ($9) a bit ago. So I can see what is typically included. Now I have my eye on the six pack deal ($99).
Jazz Midi Jazz Ballads Ballads Ballads 2 Country Keys and Stings
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MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
Playable RealTracks Set 5
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Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
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SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
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