So we are all settled on a vsti version and a 64 bit c++ audio workstation version I will mark that as confirmed. The existing delphi32 version as stated will still be available for the older users and the 64 bit c++ audio workstation will also be ported to Macintosh.
Nothing wrong with ambition.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
RealTracks ARE awesome! But comparing them to a VSTi program is not a fair comparison. By definition VSTi is a sound generator and can only sound as good as the midi commands let it sound. RealTracks are a collection of audio phrases. The genius is not just the sound but the arrangement the musician follows, the recording and mixing engineers dedication to creating the right sounds AND the (BiaB) program's audio engine capability to compile the phrases into something that is both pleasing and coherent. To me that is truely magical.
Would a laser focused VSTi with the capability described above be great? You betcha'. Would it be the equal of megabucks VSTis like Kontakt? Perhaps but it would be a huge gamble for a small music company like PG Music. But, I don't think the VSTi program would be compared to another VSTi. I think it would be compared against audio loops and against loops RealTracks and a VSTi does not fare as well because loops and RealTracks both rely on audio phrases.
Compare RealTracks and BiaB against VSTi and PG Music "wins" because it is an apple versus oranges comparison. Compare RealTracks and BiaB against loops and you have a much more level match up. PG Music doesn't "win" but it doesn't lose either. They just get to compete against every other company that makes Acidized and Rex loops.
Some good points but not sure what your overall position is!
In my growing collection of virtual gear I have some plugs that feature totally synthesized sounds and I have some that are digitized samples. Some of the synthesized sounds have no real-world equivalent while others are intended to model and synthesize a real instrument.
What they all have in common is they can be "played" using a MIDI controller or by inputting the notes on some version of piano roll software.
Some of these plugs are very simple with only a note-for-note match between the MIDI controller and the samples being played. But others have quite extensive functionality such as loops or strum patterns, or drumming patterns, etc.
I understand that BIAB/RealTracks are not created, stored and manipulated note-by-note, rather, they are complete musical phrases a bar or more in length. So clearly there would be some difference between playing notes on a MIDI controller and having the plug select the proper samples from the library.
But given all of that I see no reason why it would not be possible to implement RealTracks generation via a VSTi interface that would work inside any DAW!
And yes, there would be technical issues to work out and also possible issues with assumptions of users who are familiar with how samples work and unfamiliar with the RealTrack phrase approach.
So, I acknowledge it will be a fairly steep learning curve if the PG team has not programmed VSTi before but I cannot imagine the curve to be any steeper than a complete rewrite in a modern framework! And of course there will still be GUI elements required but all of the stuff the DAW already does can be left out.
At the end of the day, if PG could create a RealTracks plug that follows the standards and works in any DAW it would be a KILLER product!
Some good points but not sure what your overall position is! At the end of the day, if PG could create a RealTracks plug that follows the standards and works in any DAW it would be a KILLER product!
I agree a VSTi that can use RealTracks to create an audio file within a DAW environment is a wonderful idea. I support the thought.
But I don't think PG Music has any desire to create a VSTi.
That's one of the great things about PG Music, one never knows in advance what they will do. I never would have guessed a Band-in-a-Box foot pedal or partnering with Roland and Microsoft on Songsmith. PG Music follows their own path.
It was on the Songsmith website. Roland provided different instrument samples from those used in Microsoft software. Songsmith also had a modeled based versus sample based instrument set for a short time years ago.
The project seems to be pretty stagnet but every now and then you can visit the website and scroll through the pages and find something new. I don't think there have been any changes to the program itself since 2012 but the forum area still has some activity.
There is still a big difference between the Mac-version and the Windows-version. Mac-users are missing a lot of Windows-features. When will there be an equivalent version? PGMusic should list the differences on their website. I didn't know them and was quite disappointed.
Isn't one of the main reasons behind the differences between Mac and Windows BIAB versions due to the fact that Apple changed their OS significantly a few years back without consideration for those programs that were designed for the previous system? I'm not sure about this but I seem to recall a discussion a year or two ago.
I understand that BiaB current version and RealBand can run on Mac computer hardware, just need Parallels or Boot Camp etc and run it on a Mac under Windows O/S
Trouble is, many Mac users refuse to do that. That's really their decision. There is a choice.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
I would say that all the other cross platform audio applications are released at the same time but I could be wrong you would have to have a look and let me know. When you fix a problem with one version you would also be fixing the problem for the other version. Just trying to lift the awareness up.
I have not coded for a long time, did it at UNI, then some years in program design. Old school as a programmer, modular 2, Pascal.
As you guys know, I support a total rewrite and a VST. I believe that a new product will come with time (perhaps a loooong time) .
In regards to programming language I don't really know OOP, but I would have thought that major considerations would be what code was available off the library shelf, if there were good interfaces to work in, whether their was sympathetic development tools, enabling stuff like dockeable drag and drop widows, good sound, low latency. Programming from scratch is always possible but it can be expensive and their are better ways to use time.
I recently retired as a software developer after 30 years in the trenches. I've written everything from Assembly to C#. I worked freelance for the last 15years. I don't know how many tons (all code is measured by the metric ton) of code I have written.
A good friend (and decent enough programmer) once told me that Programming is easy, good Ideas are difficult.
Inexperience sometimes makes people believe a particular tool or technology will instantly solve a problem. Experience shows us mostly this is not true. It is people who take the tools and make the product what it is.
In the hands of Stradivari a chisel is a formidable tool. In my hands it is but a pry bar.
The boys and girls at PG Music have put together a first class piece of code for over a decade now. This is MUCH longer than most programs survive.
All excellent points mrgeeze. Actually, BiaB just celebrated its 25th anniversary. An eternity in software applications.
Joel Spolsky is a New York software developer with some excellent ideas. I've long been an admirer of his work.
I remember he wrote this article - a long time ago now, but I kept a link to it because it's great advice and this advice is still current. The article discusses rewriting code from scratch. The line that caught my attention was: "It’s harder to read code than to write it." How true.
If PGM ever decided to port to a different development platform, don't expect the next release for a long time. A very long time. And what would be delivered after that extraordinary wait? Exactly what we have now, except with a whole new set of bugs thrown in that need to be painfully sorted out.
Joel also makes other excellent points:
"When you throw away code and start from scratch, you are throwing away all that knowledge. All those collected bug fixes. Years of programming work.
You are throwing away your market leadership. You are giving a gift of two or three years to your competitors, and believe me, that is a long time in software years."
I expect Peter and his team are aware of this too.
While I'm sure the intentions are all good, the O/P should definitely read Mr Spolky's article. I have no intention of being confrontational, but the line: "if they changed to c++ would get less errors and run smoother" is just utter nonsense.
Trevor
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
That's a cool series of essays and it brings back memories -- yes reading code is hard and developers knowing what they have written don't devote time to comment what the code means. Later they take weeks to analyze what they presumably have thought writing this mess within an hour.
It's a good read for everybody who has master solutions to better software.
I have followed Joel for years as well and I totally agree a complete rewrite of software as complex as BIAB would be an enormous undertaking. But there comes a time with every piece of software where you must bite the bullet and do it! Lots of folks here are always wishing for true 64-bit and except for a few die-hard EGA/DOS/WIN95-fans, everyone agrees the GUI is overdue for real modernization. Those kinds of changes done right will likely necessitate a pretty serious rewrite.
But I will come back to my VSTi mantra! If I were PG I'd plan to keep patching up BIAB indefinitely but on a parallel track I would hire a crack team of modern software architects & engineers to connect the brilliant RealTracks engine into a modern VSTi interface. Now that is a Killer Product!
"They could keep the existing band in a box how it is 32 for the older users that have been accustomed to it's interface for the last 20 years and make a new modern version that can be used like band in a box but in an audio workstation like real band in a new c++ 64 application."
Hey guys don't miss the point i'm trying to make - the writing is on the wall - have a bit of insight. You don't want to hold things back. Can you really see band in a box being still having only 32 bit in 2020 2030.. ? I always see things long before they happen but they still always happen. Lift up your consciousness, come up with some transcending ides - new concepts.
This is a good place to bring these to fruition. Don't just sit back and wait n hope pg comes up with some good thing at the end of the year like chickens waiting to be fed, make it happen !
Don't hold back and knock things - get into it. You guys have got to aim a bit higher. With all the vast programming knowledge you guys have it should be possible - not impossible.
If another company decide now to do the same thing, how quick do you think it would take pg to change things ?
LISTEN to johnjohnjohn - get that "VSTi interface" happening NOW !
I found this http://sourceforge.net/projects/delphiasiovst/ so you delphi programmers might be able to incorporate the bbw.exe into a vst as is done something like in realband that calls on c:\realband\data\bbw2.exe (initializing accompaniment)
you could set up a main instance of the plugin on track 1. and set it to track 1. in the vst, with track 2. set to track 2. in the vst and so on or allow the next track as a midi track for the midi notation of that real track.
so the plugin will follow the host synchronization n bpm TPOPSTRINGDIALOG
the vst would need to show the chord window TSSWINDOW and other necessary windows that could be in tab form, might be easiest to follow if you have the chord window like real band continuous unfolded - but basically you just need it for generating up the tracks then move to the daw functions for any further editing.
you should be able to select any bars then click the generate track No.X button on the main plugin window to render a new piece if you don't like the section, without having to generate the entire track.
so the generate buttons would need a drop down menu with real track - drums - user track - super midi and so on with recent generation to choose from could be something like the drop down generate in real band.
you would still need the open save as to import and save an sgu
you can set a bar offset in your daw to allow for 2 bar count off and pickup intro notes.
That is just a startup idea any other users with suggestion, improvements and ides for the vst please post! *
* again please note "They could keep the existing band in a box how it is 32 for the older users that have been accustomed to it's interface for the last 20 years"
Stimulating conversation that I've been following from the beginning. Been reading, but held my fingers in check, but feel the need to write something regarding this subject.
I'm sure that PG is way ahead of you. As development takes time and knowing how 'secret' PG is about upcoming releases, I am not at all surprised to not see any PG staff responding to this interesting thread.
Do any of you seriously believe that Dr. Peter Gannon is still living in the DOS ages? I think not. Bide your time, fellow BIAB'ers.... As has been adequately mentioned, a complete rewrite of what we have today is a HUGE undertaking and will take a lot of time and resources (therefore, money!).
Things will come to fruition in time. And time is what it will take.
Keep on keeping on!
Cheers, Mike
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