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I have RealTracks sets 1-66 on my hard drive in .wma format. I saw in the manual that BIAB has a function to convert them to .wav.
Since this conversion would take a long time, before I do it, what are the advantages? Will it decrease the time it takes to generate the real tracks for a song?
Related question: when you click "play" for a song, BIAB understandably takes some time to generate RealTracks and RealDrums. Is the PC's processor the limiting factor in how fast it can generate, whereby the faster the processor, the faster BIAB can generate? (If so, that would give me another reason to upgrade my old Pentium 4 3.2 GHz system.)
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We've had a few discussions about your first question. You will increase the size of your Real Tracks by a factor of about 10, and there will be no difference in sound quality. Yes, the Real Tracks will generate a bit faster. How much is a bit? I don't know; I can tell the difference, but it isn't an enormous difference, just a noticeable one. Mac put a number on the improvement percentage once during early beta testing. He used a stopwatch. I don't recall the number, but I think it was in the area of 15% faster.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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As I recall, that 15% faster figure seems about right.
Bear in mind that my testing was done on a rather long in the tooth AMD64 machine running at 2ghz.
And it didn't seem worthwhile, even at gigs, to bother with IMO.
--Mac
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Thanks, Matt and Mac. Based on the info you provided, I won't do the conversion.
How about the 2nd question regarding whether the limiting factor in the speed of generating the RealTracks for songs is the CPU?
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You're welcome. However, I wouldn't write this off so quickly; you can easily try it on just one Real Track folder and see for yourself.
I don't know the answer to the second question, as I suspect it may be variable depending on many factors of each computer, including hard drive access speed.
Let's hope Peter can answer it. It is an interesting question.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Maybe all you need is a RAM upgrade?
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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I'm not sure about that, Sam. His Pentium 4 is probably vintage 2004 or so, and it supported addressing up to 4 GB of RAM (3+ usable). So, he might already have plenty of RAM. I think Real Tracks are first loaded into RAM, but it would seem that it would not take gigabytes to hold just three or four Real Tracks at one time. Or perhaps you were referring to a RAM upgrade for speed rather than capacity, but that is limited by the motherboard (and many motherboards of that era were limited to 2 GB RAM). Until we hear from PG Music, I'm leaning toward CPU speed and disk access speed as the more important factors in Real Track performance. Again, it is an interesting topic and could influence the next PC purchase for some folks if we knew the answer.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I meant upgrade the RAM for speed, Matt. SilverTones has been running an archaic system for some time and he doesn't appear to have any problems (NOI, ST). I should have thought that a Pentium 4 was more than adequate for the task at hand.
My latest system is an Intel Core 2 Duo CPU T9600 2.80GHz with 4GB RAM and that is the highest spec for an HP lappie. Only about 3 months old. If PG software can't run on that then I am no longer interested (as I need the portability for gigs etc) but it does, delightedly. Therefore, a Pentium 4 3.2GHZ system should be more than adequate, don't you think? Or are we talking mainframe now?
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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I agree with you, Sam. I kept an older machine as a backup that is almost exactly what dalemccl has, and it runs anything from PG Music very well. About "upgrading RAM for speed", you can't put DDR3 into a motherboard designed for DDR2, for example, so I'm not sure exactly how one does that.
Funny you mentioned mainframes. I used to teach mainframe operating systems on one of those in the 1980s. Brings back good memories. I also happen to live near the IBM manufacturing plant for mainframes. For decades, IBM was the largest employer in my county.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Well, sure, you cn only fit the right kind of RAM
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Right. It was a serious inquiry, though.
I build all my own PCs; always have since my third one in 1985. Then I pretty much forget about RAM once I build a PC. I buy the most and fastest RAM that the motherboard supports at the time (or maybe one step down from the bleeding edge, which is overly expensive). But years later, is there really RAM that I could just pop in that would be so much faster? Each time I consider it, they have changed the spec again to make the new RAM incompatible! Getting RAM for the old motherboard becomes prohibitively expensive.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Hmm, in a way you're both right Matt and Sam.
Gotta have the right RAM, but adding RAM for speed is reasonable provided dalemccl is underequipped in that department. However, as Matt said, the M/B must support RAM beyond what is already installed.
dalemcci almost certainly has a 32 bit version of XP - this limits him to 4GB addressable, of which up to almost a Gig will be inaccessable as that much of the address space will be used by things like the video card and other hardware devices, including the BIOS.
For 32 bit XP, 1 GB seems to be a "sweet spot". Adding RAM above this number will still improve things but the returns are diminishing. I.E. going from 1GB to 2GB won't give half the performance improvement that going from 1/2 a GB to 1 GB does*. That said, these days I won't sell a PC with less than 2 GB and preferably 4GB. With 4 GB you get the full amount of addressable space in the machine even if almost a Gig is wasted. RAM is cheap at the moment.
If the M/B can use faster RAM than is installed then it helps to change RAM type. If the M/B supports bank switching then matched RAM modules will improve things. BUT, I suspect a faster HDD will probably be more effective assuming the existing drive is 4200 or 5400 RPM - going to 7200, 10000 or even 15000 (Good SCSI) RPM will help a lot, as will fast interfaces (which spec. of IDE, SCSI, SATA or SAS**) given that I/O to the drive will likely be a significant factor in decompressing the wma's.
* A caveat here is that some applications like Adobe CS3 suite have a huge RAM requirement and will use everything it can grab so for app's like this you can't add too much RAM (within the addressing limits of the M/B and OS).
** being a P4 it's a good bet that it's IDE, but SATA was just starting to make a reasonable foothold in the 3.2 GHz era so it couuld be that but if so it would be the lower spec. (1.5 Gbit/S) so a PATA 133 IDE would likely have been slightly faster.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Lawrie, as a PC builder with BIAB experience, do you have any observations about which PC characteristics are most important for the best Real Track performance?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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G'day Matt, unfortunately, my BIAB experience is somewhat limited - I ONLY use it as a practice tool (though I may be using it as a teaching aid in the next few months). As a result I can't give you a definitive answer, BUT there are some general Windows related considerations which would have a direct bearing: - RAM - insufficient RAM will slow things down.
- RAM - matched modules (for speed and size) will allow those M/B's that bank switch (pretty much all modern ones) to do so more efficiently
- RAM - some of the more recent M/b's don't actually NEED matched RAM but performance will still be better if it is.
- HDD I/O - a slow drive or drive interface will slow things down - the faster the drive the better.
- HDD I/O - the faster the better - talking spindle speeds here - MINIMUM 7200 RPM IMHO (bearing in mind that HDD I/O speeds are below SATA II capabilities anyway...)
- Plenty of free space. The usual rule of thumb is a minimum of 20% free space however I prefer to try and work on a minimum of 50%. Especially on systems where there is a lot of read/write disk access (like decompressing wma's f'rinstance)
- Keep the drive defragged.
- Keep the TEMP directory empty - Windows is a dreadful houskeeper and directories with lots of files become slow to access - this also applies to your IE (or preferred browser) cache
- A cacheing HDD controller will improve performance but it should have a fair bit of RAM - also it should be battery backed in case of power loss
- Disk array - I usually recommend RAID 5, but there is an overhead generated by the parity calculations - if redundancy is not an issue and performance is (I.E you have great backups) then RAID 0 is the way to go - at least 3 or 4 drives to maximise the I/O performance - these days use SATA II or SAS.
- Disk array - better still if there is a battery backed write read/write cache.
- CPU - faster is better, but the CPU isn't the bottleneck it used to be for most applications. In the case of BIAB I would consider it to be of less importance than disk I/O and RAM
- CPU - AFAIK BIAB is not a multi threaded application so there will be little or no real advantage to multi core CPU's other than the ability for Windows to offload some things to the other core(s). For this reason I think that clock speed is going to be more important than number of cores. PG Music may see fit to correct this assumption.
- Video hardware - for the most part this is only REALLY important for gamers and high end video editing. I don't see there would be much improvement for BIAB with changes to video.
- Sound card - almost irrelevant WRT speed, but vital for quality. Choose one that has as low noise figures as you can while still providing the other features you want. E.G sufficient channels (both recording and playback)
- * SYNTH - software or hardware? Internal or external? Soundfonts? Hardware has less CPU overhead and lower latency (as a generalisation - ASIO changes this somewhat) but usually is less flexible when you take VST and DX into account. Latency problems with software synths can usually be overcome.
- * MIDI/outboard hardware I/O interface - USB, Firewire, 5 pin DIN? USB 2 is pretty fast and easier to get reliable I/O than Firewire. For Firewire the concensus seems to be that you MUST use the Ti chipset or you will likely have throughput problems. 5 pin DIN suggests there is a MIDI interface in the PC - most unlikely these days... You normally see USB to MIDI adapters now. Choose a reliable one that works with your other gear - USB and MIDI are both standards that are well established so this shouldn't be a problem.
* Not really applicable to RealTracks but I included 'em anyhow. That's about all I can think of for now... OK - reality check - all the above is good info, BUT when you take into consideration the capabilities of most modern mid level PC's the few percentage points of improvement you're likely to see would make the extra expense of some of what I've mentioned hard to justify. OTOH the housekeeping suggestions will help and cost nothing but a bit of time.
Last edited by Lawrie; 08/25/09 12:41 PM.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I replied earlier with some additional info, but don't see the reply so must have done something wrong. Here it is again.
My Pentium 4 3.2 GHz PC is 32 bit Win XP with 4 GB RAM that, if I recall correctly, was the fastest RAM supported by the motherboard. There are two 1 TB 7200 rpm SATA drives. Lawrie is correct - the drives are 3 Gb/S but the mobo's controller is only 1.5. There are jumpers on the drives to make them operate in 1.5 mode so that they will work with the mobo.
BIAB generates the RT/RD's in about 30 seconds, depending on style and song length. That is not bad considering all that it must have to do to generate the tracks. The problem (minor) comes when I am trying out different styles for the same song. The time adds up after trying 5-10 or more different styles. (It's worth the wait though. RT's and RD's sound really good.)
For various reasons, I've been wanting to upgrade my CPU, which would require also upgrading the mobo, RAM, and video card (current video card is an old AGP card). A new mobo would also allow running the SATA drives at 3 Gb/S. So if the slower Pentium CPU or the 1.5 Gb/S drives are bottlenecks for generating RT's, it would be one more reason to upgrade.
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G'day dalemccl,
I think there is a bit of information you're lacking - the HARDWARE of modern mechanical drives still can only transfer at a maximum of about 131 MB/s and this lies within the capability of 1.5 GB/s SATA interface. You won't see any real improvement by going to 3 GB/s unless you have solid state drives. I don't think this will remain the status quo for long though.
You mentioned 1 TB 7200 RPM drives - these wouldn't happen to be Western Digitals would they? There is a rumour that the "7200 RPM WD's" are actually 5400 RPM with lots of on board cache to make them perform about like a 7200 RPM drive. This would not be an issue unless there was sustained I/O (like when generating RealTracks). It doesn't really sound like something a reputable company would do but I have seen stranger things. I do know the WD's generally don't seem to perform as well as their Seagate equivalents. This excludes the VelociRaptor range (10,000 RPM) which are really good.
Please don't take the above as a specific indictment - I like WD's - they are usually very reliable which is important to me - perhaps more so than outright performance in most cases.
Last edited by Lawrie; 08/25/09 01:13 PM.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Some more thoughts on my previous 'performance" Post.
AVOID Vista - it is too slow! For the moment, XP is the performance choice, though reports look good for Win7 (Vista Mk II). From what I'm reading Win7 wins all the performance benchmarks once you get above 1 GB RAM - below that XP still has the goods.
If you must use Vista (or you go with Win7 in October) then turn OFF the eye candy - why waste performance on silly crap. Aero is a huge CPU cycle waster - select the "Classic" option instead.
Win7 in 64 bit mode may be the way to go - get LOTS of RAM and make sure your CPU supports hardware virtualisation AND that you can enable it in your BIOS - this way you can run the XP SP3 virtual machine you can download from m$ for those apps that won't run properly otherwise. Make sure you can get 64 bit drivers for all your hardware.
This is probably best done with a new PC. "Upgrading" your OS is usually an exercise in dissapointment given that they always get fatter...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I don't think RealTrack Generation needs nor uses Sustained Transfer Rate I/O.
I also don't think that this gentleman will realize much advantage in load times over what he's already getting right now, no matter what currently available machine he builds.
A little faster, yes, probably, but not enough to make it worth the time and money of a new build.
--Mac
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Quote:
A little faster, yes, probably, but not enough to make it worth the time and money of a new build.
Yeah, that's why th reality check at the end of the big post...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Well put, Lawrie. Man, half that stuff flew right over my head, despite my education! Or was I too lazy to read it?  NOI
Follow That Dream Sam Karaoke King -------------------- Turning that corner again - I have to keep following that dream, no matter what
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Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
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In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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