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I have noticed some folks make UserTracks using another library such as SampleTank. I would like to try this but I am wondering if there are any legal considerations? Usually, digital libraries specify you are licensed to use them in your works but not to repackage and distribute them. Wouldn't this count as repackaging and distribution?
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/15/16 05:58 PM.
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I wouldn't think so since SampleTank and any other player you might use in this instace is being used as a sound module. I don't see where it would be any different than using sound from any other source.
But I'm not a lawyer and have not read the SampleTank EULA.
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I assume PG pays their RealTrack artists for session work and gets either full ownership of what was played or at least unlimited license.
In the case of UserTracks I certainly understand if I want to play and convert that to UserTrack it is no problem.
But what I think might be an issue is taking samples intended for use in songs, repackaging them in a different format (UserTrack) and then redistributing them for others to use in their songs without IK receiving any compensation for that use.
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/20/16 08:39 AM.
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I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that what you are doing is using the sounds provided by the libraries, but are not distributing the libraries themselves. You are allowed to create music using those sounds and do whatever you want to with them. So you are just distributing audio content that uses those sounds (not much different than if you created a song using those sounds). The only difference is that the audio can be sliced and diced by BIAB/RealBand; however, you are not distributing the sound libraries themselves. But again, I'm not a lawyer. I don't even play one on TV (or even YouTube, for that matter). 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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I assume PG pays their RealTrack artists for session work and gets either full ownership of what was played or at least unlimited license.
In the case of UserTracks I certainly understand if I want to play and convert that to UserTrack it is no problem.
But what I think might be an issue is taking samples intended for use in songs, repackaging them in a different format (UserTrack) and then redistributing them for others to use in their songs without IK receiving any compensation for that use. You create a UserTrack using a SampleTank sound over your original midi data and that is your original work the same as a song, a movie track or a symphony. SampleTank, Kontact, and every other library are used in loops and midi files in every thinkable type of composition. My thought is that the library itself is considered proprietary and is not to be repackaged and distributed. In other words, you cannot use SampleTank material to create a JohnJohnJohn- Lite Sample Library and market it as yours. I believe you can write a song, loop, usertrack, movie soundtrack, symphony or any composition using Kontact, SampleTank, Coyote Forte, and Roland Soundcanvas in your production without compensating the Library. DISCLAIMER: I'm stating my opinion in a forum conversation and it should be construed solely as opinion and not legal advice. I'm neither qualified, certified nor intend to render legal advice. Any use of my thoughts or words are taken at the reader's sole risk and responsibility. This post contents are not legal advice.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Yeah I see no problem at all with creating UserTracks and using them myself on my own songs. I think that is pretty clearly allowed.
What I am talking about is the act of translating the SampleTank sounds from their library to a new format that is compatible with BIAB and then distributing them here or elsewhere for free or for money. Essentially, this is taking a subset of the SampleTank samples and providing them to others for their use in their own songs thus depriving IK of potential income off the samples.
Think of it this way. What if someone figured out how to convert RealTracks (or a subset of RealTracks) so they could be used inside Kontakt and then they distributed those converted RealTracks to Kontakt owners so they could access some of the RealTrack sounds without purchasing BIAB!
Thanks for all of your inputs!! I started this thread by asking the question but after having thought this through I would definitely NOT ever do this except for my own personal use. And I bet PG is at risk for allowing other sample libraries (or portions of those libraries) to be converted and distributed here!
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But JohnJohnJohn, when you create a User Track, you are really just creating a song (using a defined chord progression in an SGU file), which results in a rendered WAV file. It's the exact same process you would use to create any other song that might use a sound library, and you then are legally allowed to use IK's sounds in your own songs that you potentially make money from. If you couldn't do it with User Tracks, then I would think you wouldn't be able to use SampleTank to create and sell your own BIAB songs, because they're both the same thing, really.
The only difference is that the User Tracks resultant "song" gets sliced and diced in a different order than you originally created it. But since you released the user track, then you are the one that needs to be okay with that, not IK (since you used the IK sounds for their intended purpose in the first place).
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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But JohnJohnJohn, when you create a User Track, you are really just creating a song (using a defined chord progression in an SGU file), which results in a rendered WAV file. It's the exact same process you would use to create any other song that might use a sound library, and you then are legally allowed to use IK's sounds in your own songs that you potentially make money from. If you couldn't do it with User Tracks, then I would think you wouldn't be able to use SampleTank to create and sell your own BIAB songs, because they're both the same thing, really.
The only difference is that the User Tracks resultant "song" gets sliced and diced in a different order than you originally created it. But since you released the user track, then you are the one that needs to be okay with that, not IK (since you used the IK sounds for their intended purpose in the first place).
jford, No, in making a UserTrack you never created a song! Neither in your intent nor your actions (not "you" personally but the universal you!) Instead, you followed PG's instructions for mechanically/methodically recording a chord sequence for the sole purpose of converting the samples from IK format to UserTrack format so that the instrument samples can then be used by others to create their own songs! HUGE difference from actually writing a song! And I certainly get that part of the conversion process involves you creating a pattern or strum and that is what gets sliced up but the underlying samples, the sounds themselves, are from another sample library. Your only contribution is the pattern or strum. If I followed your logic it would be OK for PG (or any one of us) to buy a single copy of SampleTank, convert all of their samples to UserTrack libraries and then sell that as a brand new expansion product for BIAB! Surely you see that IK would not permit that! I remain convinced that creating a UserTrack from a licensed sample library and then distributing that UserTrack is probably not allowed under current licenses!
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If you used real tracks in kontakt they would be looped phases that would be using pg creativity.
If I used Microsoft GS Wavetable with my midi for user tracks would Microsoft sue me ?
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If you used real tracks in kontakt they would be looped phases that would be using pg creativity. If you use SampleTank libraries in BIAB (without purchasing a library) that would be using IK creativity!
If I used Microsoft GS Wavetable with my midi for user tracks would Microsoft sue me ?
Probably not but my question is not whether you can get away with a license violation!
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If you are using the version that comes with band in a box free in band in a box and user tracks can only be used in band in a box.
Can you just make a midi user track that will use the sample tank vsti or any other vsti - that way I the end user owner of band in a box and free ST can use any vsti I like without worrying about these violations and it would be a lot quicker to upload a midi user track ?
Can you just contact IK Multimedia ?
Last edited by Pipeline; 04/20/16 03:10 PM.
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If you are using the version that comes with band in a box free in band in a box and user tracks can only be used in band in a box.
Can you just make a midi user track that will use the sample tank vsti or any other vsti - that way I the end user owner of band in a box and free ST can use any vsti I like without worrying about these violations and it would be a lot quicker to upload a midi user track ?
Can you just contact IK Multimedia ? Just to clarify, I was NOT talking about the SampleTank version that comes with BIAB. In that case I would think you are simply converting SampleTank samples that other BIAB owners already have so that should be fine. I was referring to SampleTank 3 (or really any 3rd-party sample library that does NOT come with BIAB). In these cases, by converting their samples to UserTracks and then giving or selling these to BIAB users, you are essentially granting BIAB users access to samples that they own no license to for use in their songs.
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/20/16 03:45 PM.
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Okay in that case just upload the midi file user track and I will use them in any of the vsti's I own - that way I can add key switches anywhere I like to get the sound I like - same with user track drums I can change the kit and re-mix it.
So you would only need to save your midi user track to an mgu then I just render your midi file to a wav/wma along with the mgu/sgu in the user track folder.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree here, JohnJohnJohn.
To create a UserTrack, I first start by entering a chord progression in to the BIAB grid (or loading one that was already created), and then hit play to generate the backing track (PGMusic's license allows me to do this). That's how you create any song with BIAB. I then record some sort of melody to that chord progression (chord progressions can't be copyrighted), which will ultimately become my User Track, but first...
If I use MIDI to record that melody (perhaps from my keyboard), I need to use a MIDI sound library to be able to even hear what I recorded, be it the Microsoft WAVTable or an IK Sampletank library or whatever. Sound Library manufacturers sell you their products to allow you to do just that. I then convert my song to an audio (WAV) file for the melody/arrangement I created that went along with the chord progression. It's my song.
So, please explain how that is not my song?
And I don't have to pay ID royalties to play my song just because I used a sound library as my sound source (because the license permits you to create and sell/give away a song using their sound libraries). At this point, I can do anything I want to with my song, to include releasing it as a User Track and allowing other users to slice and dice that melody for their own songs. If I want to distribute my song in one or two bar phrases (as would happen using the User Track engine), it's still my song. I created it. I only used SampleTank to allow it to be heard.
When I distribute it, I'm not distributing the Sampletank Library, I'm distributing my song that used the SampleTank Library to create the song in the first place. And if I turn it into a User Track, I'm not reselling SampleTank, I'm just reselling (or giving away) snippets of MY song and allow other users to do what User Tracks do.
Now, if I used the User Track to create a known riff or a known (meaning copyrighted) melody, then that's a problem. But my issue won't be with IK, it will be with the copyright holder.
If I have to pay IK for using their libraries as a sound source, then everyone would have to pay IK for every song they created using SampleTank libraries.
So, on this, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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The fundamental flaw in your reasoning is claiming you are creating a song when in fact you are not! Instead you are using a process of entering common chords so you can convert that to a file that others can use to create songs.
And I certainly get that you have a part in the resultant UserTrack. You may have created a pattern or strum and that is something you created.
Where I believe the problem comes in is when you distribute something for others to use that contains a significant amount of a licensed sample library.
When it comes to use of licensed IP, further distribution in any form is almost always forbidden.
I'd be willing to bet if you ask IK they would tell you this is a violation of their license!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/21/16 06:26 AM.
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When it comes to use of licensed IP, further distribution in any form is almost always forbidden. Are you implying that the resulting sounds created by BIAB are prohibited from further distribution? The audio CD I created where I used a flute sound from an IK-Multimedia library - is that forbidden? Do I have to stop giving my CDs away? If not, then where's the line where it is forbidden. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but we're just not on the same sheet of music here.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Nope. Not saying that at all! Maybe I am not being clear. I fully understand that I can distribute any song I create with BIAB or with IK samples. And most libraries are like that.
What I am talking about is the re-distribution of your creation (which contains both your patterns/strums AND digitized instrument samples) for the purpose of facilitating others to use it!
No one is going to slice up your song and reuse it. And if they did you would obviously have a copyright claim. BUT, when you create a UserTrack using samples from a licensed library and then distribute that to others so they can use it to create songs that is where you have crossed the line in my opinion!
Let's take a simple example. NI comes out with some brand new, never before digitized rare Mayan flute samples in a Kontakt addon. They are sold as a library to allow you to add Mayan flute to your songs. You can create songs all day long and sell them or give them away and never have to pay NI another dime!
But then your friends over at the BIAB forums say "Hey, I want Mayan flute in my songs too but I do not wanna buy Kontakt!" So you say "No problem. I'll just convert them to UserTracks and give them to you!"
That is where I see a problem.
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Another very common example in the design world...if I buy a set of graphic icons and images I have a license that allows me to use those pieces in any end deliverable I want such as a logo or a flyer. But I am expressly prohibited from distributing any or all of the items as a collection because now I am competing with their product by supplying it in a way users can use to create their own logos, flyers, etc.
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If that's true, John, then effectively you are saying that the only legal User Tracks (that could be shared with others) would only be recordings of acoustic instruments, but nothing at all from from the digital realm, because you would be using sounds created by someone else. That would mean, for example, that I could record myself playing on an acoustic piano and capture it for a User Track, but not on my Kurzweil Digital Piano, and then especially not from my Casio keyboard controller using a softsynth, even though what I am playing is all mine (and would be the same thing on all three scenarios, with variations in the resulting sound). I could then not share my creation with others to be able to create music "in the style of me" (not that anyone would really ever want to do that).
Last edited by jford; 04/21/16 10:31 AM.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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jford,
I certainly see your point and, of course, this is only my opinion! I know nothing official about any of this! If I was PG though I'd wanna confirm whether this is an issue or not before I openly allowed UserTracks to be published that were created straight from a 3rd-party sample library.
Some companies are more strict than others when it comes to how you can use the licensed products. For example, Big Fish Audio are very strict requiring you to get special permission even for creating a song that will be sold in a library! They almost certainly would not allow their samples to be used to create UserTracks! Here is what they say,
"This license expressly forbids resale, rental, loan, gift or transfer of these samples in any format or via any medium, except as part of a derivative musical work. This license does not allow you to include the samples, whether unmodified or as part of a derivative work, in any music library or sample library product."
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/21/16 01:44 PM.
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