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Hi All,
I am looking for a better understanding of lyrics and melody so I can produce an accurate demo.
The scenario is I have the melody which I am happy with and I have the lyrics which im happy with.My understanding is that I should make the lyrics sound like the melody and then pull the music melody line out wherever their are no words leaving only the accompanying instruments.
I am working from the top down melody first and its pop music.
For instance I was listening songs by abba and they came up with the melody and then they sing english nonsense words to the melody.Then it seems they replace them with the real lyrics when they have them
Also the writer of Cats left the full melody line in under the lyrics without taking it out.This seems to be the exception though
Any help would be appreciated urs Hugh
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The lyrics of the song must follow the melody. As simple songs like "Mary Had A Little Lamb" do. And in general I start by adjusting the lyrics to "fit" the melody.
It is a very standard practice for me. I will drop a word, add a contraction, maybe drop an article like the words a, an, and it. Look for a two syllable word to replace a 3 syllable word. Understand others may write the lyrics and then find a melody for those lyrics. But, if you are comfortable with a melody you have written, and have some nice lyrics, do adjust one or the other or both until they are pleasing to your ear.
No real rules, what ever works for you, with practice you will be able to write melodies, and then put words to them. And also write words and put them to melodies. Or a combination of both. You don' know how it will end up until you try making the adjustments. Just plow through it until you are happy with the results.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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You are right - most of the time, the melody "guide track" is not left in the final music once the lyrics are worked out.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Thanks Dga
Thats very helpful adjusting the syllables.
Is it easier if your a good singer to adjust the lyrics?or does that make no difference.I was thinking it might be a good idea to hum or la la la the melody but i havent tried it yet.For me its about keeping the melody and adjusting the lyrics at the moment and keeping the same song message.If it were easy to do it probably wouldnt be as satisfying lol thanks
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Hi Dcuny
Thanks for the reply
Is the reason the guide track is taken out because it gets in way?and the listener would be concentrating on two things at the same time making it confusing?
appreciated Hugh
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Hugh, One of the most helpful things you can do to try and get the lyrics aligned is to say them or sing them in time against a drum backing. I usually enter a chord progression into BIAB, set the tempo, choose a style and start it playing. Then I write my lyrics while the backing is playing. As you'd be aware, music has strong, medium strong and weak beats in a bar. Sentences/phrases also have strong, medium strong and weak syllabic stresses. Getting lyrics to work properly requires getting the syllabic stresses properly aligned with the rhythmic stresses. From your original post, it sounds like you have a mismatch between the stresses that the music dictates as a consequence of time signature and the stresses that the syllables of the words in your phrases dictate when spoken. Here's an example to try and explain what I mean. Consider this sentence and imagine that you're saying it to someone. Let's go shopping for a new car.Ask yourself: Where are the stresses when I say it? How long do I hold onto the words when I say it? When I say it, Let's and new get the strongest stresses shop- in 'shopping' gets a medium stress. Car has a bit of stress associated with it and when I say new car, each word is held onto a little bit longer. To interpret this musically... The strongest syllables will probably need beat 1 because beat 1 in any bar is the strongest musical beat. This means Let's and new must be beats 1 on consecutive bars. I'll use a 4/4 time signature.  Because shop- is medium strong when compared to the other words in the sentence, it must be on beat 3.  When I say the phrase against the drums, go sits ok on beat 2. The -ing' in 'shopping' sounds like it comes between beats 3 and 4 and the words for a are spoken really quickly and with no stress at all. They can sit between beat 4 of bar 1 and beat 1 of bar 2; this rhythmic location is pretty much stress free (comparatively). The word car could sit on beat 3 if I drag out new. It could also sit on beat 2. That's just personal preference. Putting all this together gives....  Load a medium tempo 4/4 style into BIAB and set the tempo to 100. Now solo the drums so only they play. With the drums playing, try to say the above a few times straight after one another, aligned exactly as I have it. I think you'll find it sits comfortably. Now, with the drums still going, try to say it but slide everything across a beat so that it lines up like below.  I think you'll find this a bit of a challenge to say the phrase with Let's starting on beat 2 because the stresses of the music's rhythm do not align with the stresses that occur within the phrase when its spoken. Hope this gives some ideas. Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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in a nut shell.... the number of syllables in the lyric line should match the number of notes in the melody. Syllable count in the verse lines should be consistent through all the verses. In other words...line 2 in verse 1, 2 and 3 should all have the same count.
As a songwriter, I generally rework the lyrics to match the melody. Often, my first thought for a line might have one of those "I can squeeze this 3 syllable word in" lines.... the short answer is that I should find a better shorter word to use. The flip side is, if it works.... you now have to do that in all the other verses as well.
It's easier to rework a word or two here and there than it is to change the melody, because melody affects the phrasing of the words and could potentially create more work in the lyric department so just go ahead and fix the words to start with if you like the melody.
With few exceptions..... yeah, if you have a musical melody line, pull it out if there's a singer.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Hugh2, I've been taking the Berklee courses through Coursera and I'm in the Songwriting course now. Pat Pattison is the instructor of the course and he really has some good concepts on lyric writing. Check it out..... FREE Berklee Songwriting Course - COURSERA
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
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Hi Hugh
The melody guide track can also be useful for controlling a Vocal harmoniser unit
As can a chord guide track.
Depending on the VH unit you may need at least 2 note chords on the melody track a third apart. say double up your notes by a third a fifth or even an octave.
This can then be used to auto track the VH harmony, and or also to pitch correct the lead vocal useful for me lol.
The volume of the control track used for this purpose can set low or the velocity set to near Zero so that you are not aware of it in the recorded song.
Just my thoughts before you delete all your melody guide tracks.
Best regards
Mike
BIAB2021 UltraPlus,AsusN55S1Tbssd, W10/64,Akai EIEpro Yamaha CVP405,SquireStrat, CoolsoftVMidSynth Novatation Impulse61 Ctr kbd, Cwalk blab Kontakt http://mikesmusic.byethost16.com/
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Thanks Dga
Thats very helpful adjusting the syllables.
Is it easier if your a good singer to adjust the lyrics?or does that make no difference.I was thinking it might be a good idea to hum or la la la the melody but i havent tried it yet.For me its about keeping the melody and adjusting the lyrics at the moment and keeping the same song message.If it were easy to do it probably wouldnt be as satisfying lol thanks When I write lyrics, I find myself adding long phrases like "its a real good time" 5 syllables for example. This can be changed with some creativity to "good times" 2 syllables, or "really good times" 3 or 4 syllables depending how you sing really, "some good times" 3 syllables. In reverse "so sure" can be changed to "I'm not so sure" "But, I'm not so sure", "I can't be that sure" I'm not saying these are good lyrics, I'm just illustrating how to add or subtract syllables to make the words fit the note values in the melody. La,la,la,la, and humming the melody may lock the melody into your head. So if you are searching for a word that fits in and you have 5 words. You may sing Beatles tune "I want to la la Ha Ha Hand" they may have been thinking "I want to kiss your ugly hand" But, lucky for them they landed on "I want to hold your Ha A and" Which brings us to a great issue. Sticking in some extra syllables. Stretching out a word to fit the melody. Yes, and when all else fails use oooh, oooh, la,la,la or do do do do do. Mrs Robinson for example, Paul Simon went around for a couple of weeks singing the verse melody, with just do do do do do do do do's........Finally Art says Paul either write a song or stop singing that. Within a day Simon wrote Mrs Robinson. And he kept in the inspiration for the song those infamous do do do do's....
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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As a strong singer I usually force the melody to conform to my way of interpreting the melody. I often wind up with a variation in one of the middle choruses, or while settling on how to phrase a lyric I may end up with the bridge. Take an entire verse apart and use some of its parts its parts (only 2 lines) and create a bridge like that.
If I want to rearrange the bridge, as a guitarist, usually sticking to rhythm when singing. I use a turn around in the bridge to vary the end is a different chord than the beginning of the verse, or chorus.
BIAB gives me a huge palate of ideas, I can listen to a few DEMO songs in a similar style I have chosen. Cut and Paste 12 or 16 bars from the demo after I change it to the Key my song is in.
One trick here is set BIAB preference to run more that one BIAB song at a time. SO I have both songs open.
Last edited by dga; 04/26/16 10:25 AM.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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Hi Noel
Thats a great explanation of the strong medium weak beats and stresses.Thanks for taking the time to explain.I'l try the drum backing out for practice and see how it works,
Your Hugh
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Hi Guitar Hacker
Yeah thanks for explaination of the syllable count and repeating it in each of the verses.When I make a melody I usually really like it and hate changing it as well as you say its easier to change the lyrics.Im going to try and concentrate on syllables and as Noel said earlier stresses as well and see how it goes,
Thanks For the advice Hugh
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Hi Sselecta
I will have a look at that course thanks for the info
Hugh
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Dga
OK i didnt know you can have two open at the same time,il check out the preferences.Its all very challenging but very rewarding and biab has been great .Thanks for all the advice Im going to concentrate on the syllables and hopefully it will get me closer to being able to produce a demo without changing the melody yours Hugh
I might even add in a syllable or two lol
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Hi Mike
Thanks for taking the time for responding .I m probably a little bit back up the road and I will have to wait a little before I try that! thanks Hugh
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Its right above the OK key on the Preferences. Check Box - Allow multiple instances of BIAB to be running. Check that box and click OK and you are good to go.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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Take the Coursera course. Noel's description is duplicated in one of the lessons for the most part. Noel is the most me who turned me on to the course years ago. It will answer many of your questions and you'll have a community of hundreds if not thousands of songwriters in the forums.
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Dga
OK i didnt know you can have two open at the same time,il check out the preferences.Its all very challenging but very rewarding and biab has been great .Thanks for all the advice Im going to concentrate on the syllables and hopefully it will get me closer to being able to produce a demo without changing the melody yours Hugh
I might even add in a syllable or two lol another tactic that can help is save your BIAB file as SONGNAME_VERSE.SGU now erase everything except the first verse. Concentrate on this until you can nail singing the first verse. Then open up the original complete song file, do a save as naming this file SONGNAME_CHORUS.SGU remove everything in this file except the chorus. Practice this until you nail it.
"When you help somebody else you are really helping yourself"
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