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I think you have a point JJJ.
I touched on this but not the legal side in a post some weeks ago and that point was RT/RD's are REAL MOT MIDI. That's the beauty of the concept, taking world class players and putting them in the studio with real instruments. Not playing midi controllers and sample libraries. How many times have we all talked about that in the many threads about separating the Real Drum recordings into separate parts of the drum kit? With a real studio recording of an acoustic drum kit that's pretty much impossible to do but that ability already exists using midi but that's not what the RD's are all about. They're real not midi.
The recent exception is the new synth RT's. I certainly don't know for sure but I suspect that PG either owns the synths themselves or legally paid for their use. Now that I see what I just wrote I strongly suspect that since PGM is a well known commercial music company they must have paid someone for the use of those synth sounds. I kind of doubt that simply owning a Moog or Prophet for example means PGM can use it for these commercial RT's without paying. I think Dave Smith would get a cut if it's one of his Prophets.
A few years back someone requested some jazz scat RT's and other vocal type background things. I have a Kurzweil PC3 that has their Take 6 samples in it and at first I thought hey, I can create a vocal user track and help this person out. But then I thought the exact same thing. Take 6 vocals have been a Kurzweil exclusive soundset for years and maybe I shouldn't be doing that with their samples.
Since I'm not an attorney either I would like for Peter to chime in about this. If it is OK then I will do some background vocal RT's using my Kurzweil. You guys would love those.
Bob
Last edited by jazzmammal; 04/24/16 09:23 AM.
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I think you have a point JJJ.
I touched on this but not the legal side in a post some weeks ago and that point was RT/RD's are REAL MOT MIDI. That's the beauty of the concept, taking world class players and putting them in the studio with real instruments. Not playing midi controllers and sample libraries. How many times have we all talked about that in the many threads about separating the Real Drum recordings into separate parts of the drum kit? With a real studio recording of an acoustic drum kit that's pretty much impossible to do but that ability already exists using midi but that's not what the RD's are all about. They're real not midi.
The recent exception is the new synth RT's. I certainly don't know for sure but I suspect that PG either owns the synths themselves or legally paid for their use. Now that I see what I just wrote I strongly suspect that since PGM is a well known commercial music company they must have paid someone for the use of those synth sounds. I kind of doubt that simply owning a Moog or Prophet for example means PGM can use it for these commercial RT's without paying. I think Dave Smith would get a cut if it's one of his Prophets.
A few years back someone requested some jazz scat RT's and other vocal type background things. I have a Kurzweil PC3 that has their Take 6 samples in it and at first I thought hey, I can create a vocal user track and help this person out. But then I thought the exact same thing. Take 6 vocals have been a Kurzweil exclusive soundset for years and maybe I shouldn't be doing that with their samples.
Since I'm not an attorney either I would like for Peter to chime in about this. If it is OK then I will do some background vocal RT's using my Kurzweil. You guys would love those.
Bob Thanks for sharing your perspective Bob! I feel bad for upsetting Frank but I honestly believe we need clarification on the legalities of this! Maybe jford is correct and this is far enough "downstream" from the original samples that it is not an issue. And even if it is an issue, almost certainly, our sharing of UserTracks here is unlikely to draw the attention of folks like IK and NI. But I would really love to get PG's opinion on this. If it is OK I would also like to create a few UserTracks from the samples I have collected over the years!
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Just a few thoughts...
I think it might be useful at this stage to remember exactly what is a realtrack, and consequently a user-track.
If you navigate to your realtracks folder on your hard drive, open the folder and then open the sub-folder for a synth instrument, you'll see a number of audio files. These will likely be windows media, or wav if your lucky enough to be using the audiophile version. Double click on any of the audio files and it will play music for a few minutes. That is a realtrack - a piece of music. It is NOT a sample. It is no different to any piece of music performed on a sample player and as such it is legitimately the property of the performer. In this case the session musician has assigned copyright to PGM, who has become the legal owner of the music.
I believe that there is no way back from this. Neither the manufacturer of the sample player, nor the sample library can have any claim on this music, in exactly the same way as with any song. This is evidenced and can be observed by common practice and indeed, the whole music industry would cease to function if this were not the case. Every high earning performer would be swamped with actions from equipment suppliers and the lawyers would become even richer.
Now, if PGM as the legal owner, give me permission to take this piece of music, slow it down, pitch-shift the key and then copy and paste the chords in a different order, do I have to pay cash to the sample library? I think not. If I use a software program such as Realband to automate this procedure the principle remains.
At the end of the day, a sample is a sample, but a piece of music is something different and each are governed by separate rules.
(The usual legal disclaimers apply - this is only the opinion of the author.)
Just saying ...
ROG.
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Right, and I can see that Rog. You're saying an RT is a piece of music assigned by the owner to PGM who then has the right to allow it's customers to use it in any way they like. Ok, interesting point.
This gets into the weeds of what is a copywritable piece of music. The RT's are simply chord patterns and you can't copyright chords alone so then an RT is really nothing but another song construction tool using exclusive samples belonging to someone else. An RT not a real piece of music, it's sole purpose is to allow people to construct what could be a real copywritable piece of music.
This could boil down to intent. What's the intent of the creator of an RT? The intent is not to create a real piece of music themselves, the intent is to give it away. Therefore, what are they giving away? Why, certain sounds belonging to someone else.
This could make my head hurt.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi Bob.
I think what you mean is that you can't copyright a chord chart, which is correct. However, once you play an instrument over the chords it becomes a piece of music which you can copyright. If you were right, then every piece of music based on a 12 bar blues would be in the public domain. Obviously this isn't the case. Once you play over the chords you introduce phrasing and timing which identifies it as original. If your phrasing and timing copies exactly that of an existing piece, then you're in trouble. See what I mean?
If you get into defining what is and what isn't a piece of music you've got real problems. Think about John Cage. Not that will make your head hurt!
ROG.
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A UserTrack is a PG invention for sharing instrument sounds for the sole purpose of allowing an end user of PG products to create their own songs using the instrument sounds contained inside the UserTrack. It would be quite a stretch to claim a UserTrack is a song. Maybe there is a claim to be made about the patterns being played but as Bob said the intent was not to create a song, rather, it was to share the instrument sounds and played patterns.
I wish PG would offer their viewpoint on this!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/25/16 09:57 AM.
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A UserTrack is a PG invention for sharing instrument sounds for the sole purpose of allowing an end user of PG products to create their own songs using the instrument sounds contained inside the UserTrack. I don't believe this is correct. User Tracks are not designed to allow you to use the instrument sounds in other songs, but to allow you to use the phrases, riffs, and chord-specific melodic material to create new songs. As with RealTracks, they allow you to use the phrases created in the audio file you created, which can give other songs the "same feel as " or "in the style of" whatever you recorded. The only reason you need the SGU file for the chord progression is not to create sound from a particular chord progression, but is so that BIAB/RealBand can choose a phrase you recorded which is closest to the chord in your own song, to avoid stretching the pitch too much. It's really a matter of transposition and choosing phrases that most closely match a particular chord to create new songs. But it isn't about the underlying sound; it's about the phrases I recorded, much like phrases I create when writing a song. And of course, once I record the phrase, whether with a real instrument or digitally from a keyboard using some particular sound source, I would then apply some reverb, some equalization, maybe some distortion, maybe some de-tuning, maybe some echo, and any number of other effects. Sure the underlying sound may have been based on the sound library I used, but good luck trying to find that resulting sound in the original library. How is that re-distributing the sound maker's note specific samples? What I end up with is uniquely my creation, and again, if I can't use those sound sources to do this, then technically, I can't use them for anything. Truly, intellectually I see both viewpoints here, but I unfortunately (or fortunately, as the case may be) in reading the EULA, I don't find the text to support not using a sound vendors sound library to make my own unique creations. If I'm not allowed to do it, then the EULA should say so, and that's why you accept the license agreement to use the product. I doubt they would come after you for using it creatively in a manner not prohibited by either the letter of or intent of the user agreement. Most of the EULA's I've seen talk about sharing the software and the specific library files themselves; they don't even talk about the music you create from the use of the product.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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A UserTrack is a PG invention for sharing instrument sounds for the sole purpose of allowing an end user of PG products to create their own songs using the instrument sounds contained inside the UserTrack. I don't believe this is correct. User Tracks are not designed to allow you to use the instrument sounds in other songs, but to allow you to use the phrases, riffs, and chord-specific melodic material to create new songs. As with RealTracks, they allow you to use the phrases created in the audio file you created, which can give other songs the "same feel as " or "in the style of" whatever you recorded. The only reason you need the SGU file for the chord progression is not to create sound from a particular chord progression, but is so that BIAB/RealBand can choose a phrase you recorded which is closest to the chord in your own song, to avoid stretching the pitch too much. It's really a matter of transposition and choosing phrases that most closely match a particular chord to create new songs. But it isn't about the underlying sound; it's about the phrases I recorded, much like phrases I create when writing a song. And of course, once I record the phrase, whether with a real instrument or digitally from a keyboard using some particular sound source, I would then apply some reverb, some equalization, maybe some distortion, maybe some de-tuning, maybe some echo, and any number of other effects. Sure the underlying sound may have been based on the sound library I used, but good luck trying to find that resulting sound in the original library. How is that re-distributing the sound maker's note specific samples? What I end up with is uniquely my creation, and again, if I can't use those sound sources to do this, then technically, I can't use them for anything. Truly, intellectually I see both viewpoints here, but I unfortunately (or fortunately, as the case may be) in reading the EULA, I don't find the text to support not using a sound vendors sound library to make my own unique creations. If I'm not allowed to do it, then the EULA should say so, and that's why you accept the license agreement to use the product. I doubt they would come after you for using it creatively in a manner not prohibited by either the letter of or intent of the user agreement. Most of the EULA's I've seen talk about sharing the software and the specific library files themselves; they don't even talk about the music you create from the use of the product. Really great points John. I too see both sides of this. But is there a line? 1) I use a sample library but play some cool riffs of my own devising and turn that into a UserTrack to distribute 2) I use a sample library that includes strums on a guitar and I just use those directly in my UserTrack to distribute 3) I use a sample library that includes specific patterns (as ST3 does) and everything I use in my UserTrack is ST3 samples using ST3 patterns I can see your point for #1 but when you get to #3 am I not simply and cleverly figuring out a way to redistribute some of the ST3 IP without paying for that?
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JohnJohnJohn.
A user track is quite simply a piece of music. The PG "invention" is the software which slices and dices the music, though even part of this is licensed from Zplane. The two are completely separate and should not be confused. The software could just as easily slice and dice a Rachmaninoff piano concerto.
You can play back a realtrack in media player, because it's just music and as music it's within the sample users permitted use. Intent never comes into it.
ROG.
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JohnJohnJohn.
A user track is quite simply a piece of music. The PG "invention" is the software which slices and dices the music, though even part of this is licensed from Zplane. The two are completely separate and should not be confused. The software could just as easily slice and dice a Rachmaninoff piano concerto.
You can play back a realtrack in media player, because it's just music and as music it's within the sample users permitted use. Intent never comes into it.
ROG. A UserTrack is no more a piece of music than a single ST3 sample is a piece of music. Neither was intended to be played and listened to. Both were intended to be used as digital instruments in a new song. So, based on the reasoning I am hearing here, it would be OK for PG to simply buy one license of SampleTank 3 and have their programmers spend the next few months converting all of the samples into UserTrack/RealTrack format. Since ST3 also has patterns they would not even need to do any playing! And then they would have a new product to sell? And IK would not object? Or, let me make this even simpler. Based on what you are saying I could simply string together every sample in the ST3 library and call it a "music" file! Then I would be free to redistribute it as long as I also have my own software that can slice and dice it before serving it up to my customers to use in their songs.
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/25/16 12:32 PM.
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As I have said a half mile back on this other page If anyone is worried: "Okay in that case just upload the midi file user track and I will use them in any of the vsti's I own - that way I can add key switches anywhere I like to get the sound I like - same with user track drums I can change the kit and re-mix it. So you would only need to save your midi user track to an mgu then I just render your midi file to a wav/wma along with the mgu/sgu in the user track folder." This way you can also transpose the midi first to what you want then use it on any vsti you like as there are so many free ones. How long would it take to upload a super midi user track to share ? Here's just one http://www.dskmusic.com/ 100% Royalty Free for any use. If you have Kontakt there's plenty of free instruments for that also.
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JohnJohnJohn.
I don't think it's going to be a good idea to get into a theoretical discussion about what constitutes a piece of music. I think this is where I leave it.
Cheers, ROG.
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Rog, your point above about the 12 bar blues is incorrect. The only thing copywritable about a standard 12 bar blues are the words, melody and song title and maybe not even the melody because so many basic blues melody's are virtually identical. The basic blues FORM is in the public domain. That I do know for a fact, it's been to court.
Chords alone, public domain. You write an identifiable song specific lick as part of the 12 bar blues, ok it's yours. My favorite example of a lick like that is Satisfaction. In that context a user track is not a piece of music. The creator has to put some kind of original element in it besides just chords and rhythm.
JFord so you think I'm ok to create some vocal tracks using my Kurzweil Take 6 samples? All they would be are jazzy oohs and aahs over some chords and I might be able to create a scat solo too.
This whole discussion is basically theoretical to me. Absent any direction from PG, I'm fine with these user tracks and Frank keep on posting them brother until you hear otherwise.
Bob
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My last post seems to have disappeared! I asked PG to review the thread and comment and they indicated they would.
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Bob, in my mind, the answer to your question should be whether you can use those oohs and aahs in any song you produce? What if you had an a capella section with just those oohs and aahs. And if you released that song for others to use, could I extract that part with the oohs and aahs, transpose it, and use it in my song? To me the answer is yes, and that's just a variation on user tracks and should be legal.
I do agree with JohnJohnJohn here, though, is it would be best if PG Music weighed in on this, since I'm sure they consulted with their lawyers before releasing User Track capability in the first place.
But still in my mind, companies have given me the right to use their sounds. I can't find anything to the contrary in the EULAs I've read.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Well, it's been 7 days and nary a peep from the PTB so I say it's been a fun discussion but if PG has no comment then it's all good.
Bob
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Well, it's been 7 days and nary a peep from the PTB so I say it's been a fun discussion but if PG has no comment then it's all good.
Bob I'd conclude the opposite! If it is all good why would they not say so?
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 05/03/16 03:02 PM.
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The best way is contact the specific manufacture of the specific sample library you want to use, directly.
I don't think PG can solve this issue for you as user track were designed for the user to record them selves playing an instrument.
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The best way is contact the specific manufacture of the specific sample library you want to use, directly.
I don't think PG can solve this issue for you as user track were designed for the user to record them selves playing an instrument. I agree with you and in an online chat PG told me "UserTracks are intended to be audio recordings of a musician with their instrument" but the person I spoke to also did not think there is a problem using sample libraries; she said she would have a moderator comment on the thread when they get time. I guess I'd choose not to ask the library owner directly for fear they would will automatically say "No!" Maybe it is best just to let this go and not ask anyone!!!
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 05/03/16 04:37 PM.
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Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
Check out all the 202 new RealTracks (in sets 468-488)!
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
XPro & Xtra Styles PAK Sets On Sale Now - Until May 15, 2026!
All of our XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs are on sale until May 15th, 2026!
It's the perfect time to expand your Band-in-a-Box® style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs. These additional styles for Band-in-a-Box® offer a wide range of genres designed to fit seamlessly into your projects. Each style is professionally arranged and mixed, helping enhance your songs while saving you time.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-10 includes 1,000 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). Xtra Styles PAKs 1-21 includes 3,700 styles (and 35 MIDI styles)!
The XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs are not included in any Band-in-a-Box® package.
The XPro Styles PAKs 1-10 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
The Xtra Styles PAKs 1-21 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the Xtra Styles PAK Bundle for only $199 (reg. $349)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version as they require the RealTracks included in the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box today with XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAK Sets!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Mac Videos
With the release of Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac, we’re rolling out a collection of brand-new videos on our YouTube channel. We’ll keep this forum post updated so you can easily find all the latest videos in one convenient spot.
Whether you're exploring new features, checking out the latest RealTracks or Style PAKs, this is your go-to guide for Band-in-a-Box® 2026.
Check out this forum post for "One Stop Shopping" of our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 Mac Videos!
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