PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic fyi-Why You Shouldn't Use Tab

It's still my opinion that every musician should learn to read music and know at least basic theory.

Sure it is possible for a person to be illiterate in his or hear spoken language and get along just fine in the world. You can speak English without knowing how to read or write and be ignorant about the rules of grammar. That is how a non-reading, non-theory musician operates.

But on the other hand, it is a great advantage to know how to read English (if that is your native language) and also know at least basic grammar.

Knowing how to read and write plus construct proper sentences in your native languages opens up a vast new world previously unavailable to you, like Internet forums, food recipes, ingredients on a food package, books, magazines, user manuals, and so on.

Just as being literate in your native language gives you that advantage, knowing how to read music and know theory does the same for the musician.

Of course it's impossible for the non-literate musician to appreciate the difference until he or she becomes literate in music to have the difference revealed.

And yes, I know some great musicians didn't know how to read music, but some great orators didn't know how to read their language -- in both cases they are the exceptions to the rule.

If you can't read music and if you don't know at least basic theory, you really cannot know what you are missing.

Insights and incites by Notes

It doesn't matter if you play by reading the classical notes on the staff, or tab, or Nashville charts or if you can't do any of them and have to play by ear.....just as long as you enjoy music and what you're doing.

I've known people who play wonderfully and fall into one or more of those categories.

I myself fall into the "predominately by ear" category however, I can read some classical line and staff stuff if I had to figure something out, and can play well with chord charts as my guide.

I heard that the Beatles were also not very adept at reading music and that was a point of ridicule in their early days. "Those guys with long hair can't even read the music they're playing." << my Mom said that. But look at how much they changed the world playing by ear.

I've played in church settings where the piano players could play a piece of music from sheet music in a key with 4 flats but couldn't jam in the key of C to a 1/4/5 blues progression. In fact, one even asked what was I talking about when I said it's a 1/4/5 in E.

To each his own, depending on how one learned. There's no harm in being in one of those camps, and it's even better if one has taken the time to learn two or more of them. Nashville studio musicians can play wonderful things from their numbering system and knowing the key. Short side bar story: I saw a country star in concert one evening. Her band was super tight and sounded like her recordings. After the show, I noticed the guitarist was standing off to the side watching things. I walked up and introduced myself and complimented him on the show. I asked how long they had been playing with this lady. His reply was revealing. He said that none of the band had played with her before that night, or each other as her backup band and that several of them flew in from Nashville, including him, to play that gig. They used the Nashville numbering system charts, and played the solo's since they were familiar with her and her band's hit records from the past. They spent a few days before the gig learning the stuff on their own and a quick sound check was all the rehearsal time they had had. Impressive.

TO say one shouldn't use Tab or shouldn't play by ear, or shouldn't do this or that is, frankly, IMHO, wrong. Use whatever tool you need to use to get the job done. With music, the only thing that should matter to anyone, be it the musician, or the listener is..... how does it sound? Did you like hearing that song, did you like playing that songs? Yes? Then all is good.

Much in the same way there are no "right way to tune the guitar".....there are dozens of tunings and all are for a purpose and have a reason and sound good.

So... just play.

My piano teacher during college was like that.
He helped me quite a bit with a "Medieval Man" concept project I was working on at that time.
He was as good as anyone would expect being a college professor.
But...during one on my private tutoring/writing sessions we got on the subject of jamming with others.
He told me...."I cannot hear a note in my head". (Huh!)
I was shaking my head in disbelief....I actually thought all accomplished musicians could, by default.

That was very odd to me because I can hear music in my pea brain and figure out aspects of music that require it.

To the topic itself....
My desire to become a better musician was based on trying to surround myself with those better than myself and learning the language(s) of music.
My take....everyone has different goals so one should do what is necessary to achieve them.

Back to it....

Re: The Beatles. George Martin could read music and was a lot more responsible for their music than most people think.

He took quite simple and pedestrian song ideas and turned them into something quite wonderful.

I remember seeing a documentary about The Beatles a long time ago. There was a tape of "I Am The Walrus" as John Lennon brought it to Mr. Martin. It was boring, bordering on terrible with only a couple of chords. Martin turned it into something very interesting to listen to.

This is not to take away anything from The Beatles. It's just there were five of them, not four, and George Martin's contributions were enormous.

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Ears are important. Even for those who read music.

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Tab is OK, but you can't sightread it. It's a great addition to being able to read music, but it doesn't replace it.

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For those who don't read music and know at least basic music theory, you simply don't know what you are missing. You are doing things the hard way and you don't even know it.

That from one who can read music AND play by ear.

Insights and incites by Notes

I agree with Notes. I didn't have tabs back when I was learning. I had to learn the notes up and down the neck then figure out what fret position was the best for each song. Tabs does make that much easier today.

Tabs for me are like finger positions for every instrument. It shows you were to put your fingers to get a each note. For instance a chart that shows you that fingers one and three pressing down on valves one and three will give you a D note is tabs for a trumpet player. But tabs/charts will not teach you to read music.

I do believe that you do not need to lead music or learn theory to make good music. But doing so can expand your knowledge and playing abilities. YMMV

You can sight read tabs.

Most here knows who Joey DeFrancesco is, right?

I read a blurb with him talking about how he was hired for a session in London. The producer paid his airfare, the hotel and everything else. Joey shows up at the studio and he's handed a book of charts. He says I don't read this stuff. The producer was shocked at first but Joey said just let me hear what you've done so far and that was it.

In spite of stories like that I agree with Notes. Knowing how to read really helps most of the time. But my short lived musical career required that. I wouldn't have gotten started if I couldn't read charts. The group of guys I got to know way back when were all Vegas pros who could read fly specks at 20 feet. As it was they cut me a break because while I could not sight read actual music that fast (but I still can read) I knew chords and was good with fake book charts and that was good enough.

Bob

There used to be a rumor that Jimmy Smith couldn't read music. That wasn't true.

I read that Jimmy could look at the music, record another song or two, then play the first song flawlessly. He also supposedly had the biggest ears in the business.

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I played with a blind person who is now famous in France (Gilbert Montagne). He could read Braille music, but had the biggest ears I've ever known. We auditioned him, and in all our songs, he asked about two chords, both diminished 7tn, and he wanted to know which was the root.

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Errol Garner, and the aforementioned Joey may not have been able to read music, but they also knew advanced music theory.

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Those superstars who don't read music and also don't know music theory are always cited, but they are really the exceptions to the rule. A tiny percentage of all good musicians.

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I don't think you can sight-read TAB. I can take a piece of music, a song I've never heard and have no idea what genre it is in, or how it is supposed to sound, and unless it is extremely complicated, sight-read it. It was part of my training in school.

I'd really like to see anybody get a piece of music in TAB of a song they never heard before sight read it. An intense piece of music, but not extremely complicated.

The challenge is on

Insights and incites by Notes

Notes

I concur TAB, except for possibly a guitar savant, is NOT meant for "real-time" sight reading.

But I would challenge that a majority of people that play music also CANNOT, in "real-time," sight read sheet music.

Here the population I'm using includes ALL people that actually can play music on some instrument and at ONE TIME learned to read, or were taught to read, proper notation. That’s a very large population relative to pro's, semi-pro's, teachers, etc. so I will stand by my "majority" qualifier as true and I WOULD make book on it in Vegas (if someone ever starts a line on it).

Actually,I'm torn on this topic as a whole.

When I do come across people who want to learn to play music (on any instrument) I recommend: they should LEARN to read music, actually they should LEARN MUSIC, period and they should seek out a TEACHER (not me) that believes in that.

But I also recommend that at the same time, above all, they ENJOY playing music. If tabs are all they need to play and enjoy music, so be it.

They VAST majority (using same population) are not going to be LA or Nashville session players, choir leaders, band conductors, symphonic conductors, music teachers, stage performers, club acts, the piano guy (past security) at the Atlanta airport bar (lots of scotch consumed there - ), lounge acts, semi-pro's, super stars, or performers of any kind.

Larry

This discussion - like many of these type discussions - has been very interesting... and gone in a number of different directions. All valid for the point that the writer (of whatever post) was trying to make...

I respect guys who can read. I read enough to learn piano pieces that I want to learn (Randy Newman, Carole King, Elton John - NOT Mozart). I've NEVER had any desire to play guitar by reading. I don't want to be Tommy Tedesco. I did want to be Glen Campbell - but certainly not because he could read guitar notes on a chart.

But TABLATURE has a very valid purpose. And much more so for the large majority of people who have ever wanted to play guitar....

It takes YEARS of practice to learn to play guitar by reading notes. It takes a couple of hours to learn to play a guitar piece from tablature.

I can STILL remember the PURE JOY I felt when I bought a James Taylor songbook that included tablature to his first couple of records. In a matter of hours (or minutes) I COULD PLAY "FIRE AND RAIN" LIKE IT SOUNDED ON THE RECORD. Then "Sweet Baby James". Then "Country Roads". That one book took my acoustic guitar skills up MANY levels in a matter of DAYS (and the weeks that followed). And I could NOT put my guitar down. PURE JOY. And it was what I WANTED to know - the way I wanted to learn.

The discussion of "can you sight read tab" is pretty academic.

You do not use tablature to play FOR James Taylor.
You use tablature to play LIKE James Taylor.

I wish I knew what happened to that book....

^^ and that is precisely why one should use tab. Not depend upon it, but use it absolutely.

TAB takes on many flavors, as has "proper" notation. One accommodation that tab provides is with alternate tunings for matching voicing or creating new textures. Same as with capo use.

Yes Larry but there are certain assumptions that should be obvious in a forum like this. That assumption is when this subject comes up by people like Notes or myself this is exactly the POV we're coming from. IF someone wants to play at that level even if they never actually perform they need to learn to read charts at a minimum and full music if they can.

And also yes, everybody loves to point out the savants who are always the exceptions. Even among the top pros savants are pretty rare. Most pros graduated from legitimate music schools or at least had good teachers.

Notes is right, the people who poo poo it don't know the difference so it's easy to say it doesn't matter.

Bob

Dang, ya need hip waders just to read through this thread!

In the off chance that someone younger than dirt were to wander in here, my advice to them is just ignore the "experts" who insist you must have this degree or that level of music reading ability! Ask the 98% of Berklee graduates who work at the local MickyD's how that worked out for them!

If you are happy with tabs then use tabs. If you want to learn detailed music theory then by all means do that! Mainly, as several folks have said before...Just Have Fun!

Sight reading is a great skill to have if you’re going to be a professional musician, but it’s not a necessary skill to have if you want to learn music theory, or if you want to learn to play a fretted stringed instrument.

About 35 years ago I decided I wanted to learn music theory and I found a teacher who played guitar, piano and several other instruments. I met with him prior to the first lesson and he gave me a list of the books he wanted me to get and a course overview of what we’d be doing. I’d been playing guitar for years but I didn’t understand the relationship of the notes and why certain things sounded good or bad when paired together.

I learned to read, (mostly treble clef since that’s how guitar music is written), and dove into the books on my list and was already on lesson 4 or 5 by the time I started my first lesson. The teacher quizzed me to see if I actually understood what I’d covered and then he gave me additional assignments. After the 3rd or 4th lesson he told me that he wasn’t teaching me anything, … he was just verifying that I understood and could play the material covered. He told me I could continue lessons with him if I wanted, but as long as I kept covering the material at the pace I was then he really wasn’t adding anything to the process.

I stopped the lessons but I continued with the books and realized it wasn’t about the notes on the staff, … it was all about intervals and note relationships. In other words, it was about numbers. Root, third, fifth, or 1-3-5 to build a Major chord. Root, flatted third, fifth, or 1, b3, 5 for a minor chord.

So the formulas for all scales, chords and arpeggios are all based on numbers. Note values, intervals and relationships to other notes. Throw in some ear training and the “mystery” behind music suddenly disappears. Standard notation is just one of the ways to convey that information to other musicians.

When it comes to fretted stringed instruments, TAB is far superior to standard notation. The example I gave earlier using a G Major scale showing 8 different examples of playing that scale with TAB and standard notation and illustrating how the standard notation is exactly the same for all of them clearly shows that.

The repeated attempts to denigrate TAB and the people who use it are distressing to see.

Saying that people “shouldn’t use TAB” is not only ridiculous, … it also smacks of elitist BS.

OP's video is right on point. The video is not putting down tab. It's just that more information about what to play is given in standard notation. Pure and simple, nothing elitist about it.

Respectfully I disagree Ray. There's tons of different ways to play something that can be clearly expressed in TAB and they'll all look virtually the same in standard notation.

They'll all be be totally different in TAB.

FWIW, I have this book:
http://www.amazon.com/John-Standefers-Picture-Perfect-Guitar-Manuscript/dp/0786669365

Bought directly from the author when he came to our church to teach a guitar workshop that I arranged.

Take note of what is on the front cover. I wish it was still in print, because it's the best example of why to use it all, standard notation, TAB, chords, and a great hybrid method that John teaches.

So far I haven't pointed out any 'savant-like' persons.

John could qualify but he also is an incredibly deep student and teacher of all means of playing and transcribing, as it pertains to guitar.

Most of the folks that denigrate TAB think of it as 'lesser' than standard notation. This is where it goes off the rails because, again, for an alternately tuned stringed instrument, TAB becomes much more valuable particularly when one is aiming for a certain 'voice' of the instrument and song-where open strings should be open strings, etc. simply because they have different harmonic content than the same note played on a different string at a certain fret.

This is entirely different than keyboard instruments where for all intents and purposes, you have one place to play a certain note and that is it - no other choices.

Such is not the case on multi-stringed instruments as Bobc points out above. The choices of where to play the right notes of the multiple possibilities means all the world in the nuance and timbre of any stringed instrument, open-stringed harps excepted. Over time, one develops an ear for imagining where to play the right stuff and even if a capo is being used or if an alternate tuning is being used.

When I play electric guitar, I'm typically learning 3-4 new songs a week, where a big portion of the requirement is getting the 'sound' right in addition to playing the right notes. Very little lead work is required because it's for a modern rock worship band - where the popular thing these days is using at least one of the electrics for pads and shimmer; not unlike synth patch programming to be honest. Solos and leads aren't really part of the

John's TAB method is what I use when I have to write notes for myself on creating these vibe-things, when all I am given is a set of lyrics, a key, a BPM and sometimes chords that are accurate, many times that are not. Standard notation falls short for this and many other purposes on stringed instruments.

I hate that Hal Leonard quit publishing the book, because it's so handy - and it encourages knowing both standard notation and taking advantage of TAB if one uses the full potential of what is presented on the pages.

This conversation feels like when our local school started teaching our kids 'Chicago Math' - and it wasn't referring to elections!

One of the concepts there is that different people learn information in different ways, but can all reach the same correct outcome.

The most shining example of this was the re-introduction of use of what is called 'Lattice Multiplication' - which actually has it's heritage centuries before the multiplication method that most of us learned in school. This was taught along-side the method we are most familiar with.

Here's a video from University of Chicago showing an example of 38*57. http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/teaching-topics/computation/mult-lattice/

It was really interesting to observe my fellow parents' reactions as they taught this. A few were outraged. Most were perplexed. I was transfixed. I saw a beautiful method presented for a guy with pretty crummy handwriting that always got his columns wonky and ended up summing things incorrectly. I knew my multiplication tables, but what I was bad at was handwriting, not the understanding of multiplication.

One the kids have demonstrated that they know the tables, the teachers didn't care what method they used, traditional or lattice.

Similar story with long division. Teach multiple different ways to get to the correct outcome so that students have a greater opportunity for success depending on which method 'clicks' with them. They introduced a method called 'the forgiving method' which encourages getting good at estimation - probably one of the most critical skills any of us deal with when budgeting time, finances, etc.

The UofC website calls this the 'Partial Quotients' method. Again, I saw a beautiful way to do long-division which the way it encourages is patience and recognizing waste. The example shown here is a simple one:

http://everydaymath.uchicago.edu/teaching-topics/computation/div-part-quot/

But note that after doing this partial quotient method for awhile, one would begin to recognize that instead of estimating 10 the first time around, 20 would have been a better starting point for the estimation. Estimation upholding multiplication fact learning.

TAB supporting notation, or vice versa. Try thinking of it that way. You can also think of it as notation. There is no harm there. Probably all of the keyboard first learners poo-pooing TAB had Schaum or Thompson, or Fingerpower, or other primers which indicated which fingers (indicated by number by jove!) were best under the standard notation, particularly for multi-octave runs.

TAB is no different, for 'multi-axis' instruments that is not 'single axis' or purely linear like a piano or other keyboard. Unlike keyboard technique, the benefits of deep knowledge of fingering guides continues to help technique rather than be relegated to primer level activity.

Just ask John Standefer. 2002 winner of Winfield Fingerstyle Competition, and instructor at the Chet Atkins Appreciation Society.

Tab has its place. It is neither inferior to standard notation nor a replacement for it. It can be a good addition to reading music, but it is not a good substitute.

Learning to read notation to a musician is like learning to read this paragraph to an English speaking person.

You can speak English very well without ever learning to read or write, but learning to read opens up entire new worlds to you.

And I know it's more difficult to read music on the Guitar than it is the Saxophone. But there are things that are easier on the guitar as well (like scales and transposing). It's not instant gratification, but it's worth it.

Tab will tell you where to place your fingers, but not when to articulate the notes.

IMHO tab is fine after you have learned to read standard notation.

Of course others disagree. But in the years I've know musicians, almost all the people who insist that it is not important to know how to read music, are the ones who cannot read music.

Insights and incites by Notes