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Hey before I hit the road for a while, I thought I would point out something I have noticed about the forum. About 90 percent of the people who post stuff and receive comments also leave comments and listen to the people who listen to their music.
However, there seems to be a very thin minority of some posters who are posting a lot stuff but don't seem to get around to responding very much to those who are their listeners, if you look at the statistics.
That might not be the best of forum etiquette in the best of all possible worlds, and I am not saying this with any criticism, just an observation, as I said, in case it is helpful in any way.
Great stuff out there people.
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there seems to be a very thin minority of some posters who are posting a lot stuff but don't seem to get around to responding very much to those who are their listeners, if you look at the statistics. That might not be the best of forum etiquette Admitting my ignorance of any statistic on this subject and based on my daily reading here in the forums, I would have guessed there's actually a thicker minority that would fit into your observation. Personally, I've listened to a great deal of submissions in the User Showcase but very rarely comment for a few reasons. But, even though I do have (4) BIAB tunes finished up since I got the program (about 2+ years ago) I've never been in the habit of overtly asking anyone to listen to my material....maybe I'm terrified of the truth.  If someone does, I'm grateful...good comments or unfavorable...they still took the time to listen. EDIT: I forgot to add that I agree...if someone is continually posting their songs and soliciting listens (or honest comments) then it seems fair to expect them to listen to others consistently and comment also. It'll be curious to hear what others think of your 'observation'. Carry on...
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 07/29/16 07:48 AM.
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David, if 90 percent of those posting songs are also listening/commenting that would seem to me to be pretty good; I would have thought something less than that! I mostly use the forums for learning and entertainment. I have listened to a few songs here just to get a feel for what people are doing with BIAB but I have never posted any of my own stuff here.
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Like John, I've never posted any of my recordings in the forum. There is a certain amount of self enforcement on the User Forum in that those who post without commenting on others posts or upload too often get chastised. The only motivation I would have to post my own work would be as an educational tool, and there is more than enough available for that purpose without me jumping in.
Keith
2025 Audiophile Windows 11 RYZEN THREADRIPPER 3960X 4.5GHZ 128 GB RAM 2 Nvidia RTX 3090s, Vegas,Acid,SoundForge,Izotope Production,Melodyne Studio,SONAR,3 Raven Mtis
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David,
Don't overlook the fact that PMs are also used, especially between friends. I am delinquent in responding but I often listen. If something is especially noteworthy, I try to post an encouraging comment. I don't think it's encouraging to post negative comments. I always try to be positive.
Don
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Like John, I've never posted any of my recordings in the forum. There is a certain amount of self enforcement on the User Forum in that those who post without commenting on others posts or upload too often get chastised. The only motivation I would have to post my own work would be as an educational tool, and there is more than enough available for that purpose without me jumping in.
I don't post very often on any of the forums or at all on the user songs forum. I am more of a lurker. I do read and listen to some of the songs. Usually I feel as its the same people who post songs that they have got so familiar with each other, that they are afraid to give an honest assessment, and words like, Wow what a performance, a keeper for sure, professional all round, another masterpiece, You have surpassed yourself this time, constantly patting each other on the back. Nothing wrong in that, we all like to get our ego boosted, and to be encouraged, but maybe not the best way to get a true assessment of a song. There is some outstanding songs from the users but because people are reluctant to separate the wood from the trees, only makes the forum of less value I feel. Of course this is my own humble opinion, and as it seems to be working well in the song forum, long may it continue. Axey
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I have posted a couple of songs. My hope was to get confirmation that I was on the right path to improved music. As a rank rookie to BB or RB, I value the opinions of more experienced people.
While I appreciate hearing nice words, that is not exactly what I am after. To form a good knife, one must endure the heat of the crucible. I am good with that.
Now, I will not voice an opinion on the work of others for a while. The reason is simple. I am not yet qualified to do so. Meanwhile I continue to put one foot in front of the other, always working to attain the elusive goal of a professional sounding product.
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I do read and listen to some of the songs. Usually I feel as its the same people who post songs that they have got so familiar with each other, that they are afraid to give an honest assessment, and words like, Wow what a performance, a keeper for sure, professional all round, another masterpiece, You have surpassed yourself this time, constantly patting each other on the back.
Nothing wrong in that, we all like to get our ego boosted, and to be encouraged, but maybe not the best way to get a true assessment of a song. this is a true observation, but it's worth pointing out that the user showcase is first and foremost a showcase for the products made by PGMusic, and its function is to make visitors want what the people posting songs have. If criticism abounded here (as it does on many song writing forums) then it would create a negative impression in the minds of many potential customers, and that would do a disservice to the good people at PGMusic, and to their products. There are plenty of song writing forums where people who want honest critique can get it. Many of the people who post songs here also post in those forums, so they aren't looking for pats on the back.. they love to write songs and share them Plus, over time, people who share a passion and an involvement in any community (even online forums) tend to become friends. Therefore, they respond as to friends. Having talked about this very thing with many of the people who post on the showcase, it is my belief that people only say what they truly believe. They may filter out the negative stuff for the sake of kindness... but whatever they DO say is sincere.
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regarding the original observation about etiquette: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" (If you want reviews for your songs, then take time to review other peoples' songs) "what goes around comes around" (Whatever kind of reviews you give will tend to come back to you. Negative reviews lead to negative reviews of your songs. Short reviews of other peoples' songs lead to short reviews of your songs. Well considered and articulate reviews lead to more of the same) "behavior that is rewarded tends to be repeated" (Rewarding those who don't review other peoples' songs by reviewing theirs reinforces the behavior of posting but not reviewing. Likewise, once it becomes obvious that the path to getting feedback involves GIVING feedback, the problem takes care of itself, without need for confrontation or chiding or any kind of active intervention at all. ) It has been my experience that people don't really want attaboys... what they want is a solid description of what you heard in their song. I never EVER want to hear a comment like "sounds great!" because that doesn't tell me anything at all, and it strikes me as being a bit patronizing. But to hear something like "I liked the way the strings entered the song at 2:03... it ramped up the emotion ..." such comments are really useful indicators of how my creative decisions impacted the listening experience (standard disclaimer: my 2 cents)
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[quote]this is a true observation, but it's worth pointing out that the user showcase is first and foremost a showcase for the products made by PGMusic, and its function is to make visitors want what the people posting songs have. That's a very good reminder regarding the actual purpose of the User Showcase....something that is not generally at the forefront of my thinking when checking out User Showcase songs. PG makes an amazing product(s) and they seem to be a great team also. I'm very pleased with my entry into the BIAB fold (BIAB 2015 UltraPlusPak) Back to it....
Last edited by chulaivet1966; 07/30/16 04:17 AM.
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I have posted a couple of songs. My hope was to get confirmation that I was on the right path to improved music. As a rank rookie to BB or RB, I value the opinions of more experienced people.
While I appreciate hearing nice words, that is not exactly what I am after. To form a good knife, one must endure the heat of the crucible. I am good with that.
Now, I will not voice an opinion on the work of others for a while. The reason is simple. I am not yet qualified to do so. Meanwhile I continue to put one foot in front of the other, always working to attain the elusive goal of a professional sounding product. George, I'm with you completely. I don't feel qualified to critique others knowing the fabulous talent on these PG Forums. Perhaps that accounts for a lot of "praise" comments. I enjoy reading that someone enjoys my efforts but I can read insincerity at 100 miles. Most people and dogs can. I especially enjoy comments from the more professionally experienced folks here because they have survived the bruises associated with music and now have both canoe paddles in the water. As Mac would say: YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)
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“...it's worth pointing out that the user showcase is first and foremost a showcase for the products made by PGMusic, and its function is to make visitors want what the people posting songs have.” Roger that. Prospective customers can hear the tremendous scope of the programs, from Folk to Rock and Country and Jazz; even a bit of Ragtime. It's not a songwriting forum; it's a software forum. As for comments/reviews/critiques, I have personally never been comfortable critiquing other people's work. If I were a platinum-selling writer I might....but probably still not.  Who am I to tell you to lose a bridge or re-write a verse? I try to listen and comment when I can say something positive, but critique? Nope. Regards, Bob
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I try to listen and comment when I can say something positive, but critique? Nope. Don't be so harsh. Critique itself is neither postive nor negative. Critique is what you make it to be. Even a simple "I didn't know that you're that good." is critique. And by the way: Even if you say "That is bad." you just do express your opinion. Your opinion is always right. But the addressee doesn't have to accept it. (He or she also should not argue about it.) Critique is a Latin based word expressing the English "feedback". It is given for an incident in the past. It is given in the present. It is given with the hope to enhance [the receiver's] behavior in the future. So if you have to express a perceived negative critique, by all means reason it. The above "That is bad" is bad critique-behavior. Phrase it so that the recipient of your opinion can understand why this is your opinion and what you think could be done to improve. Maybe it is your reasoning that leads to the road to perfection.
Last edited by GHinCH; 07/30/16 10:44 AM.
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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I try to listen and comment when I can say something positive, but critique? Nope. Don't be so harsh. Critique itself is neither postive nor negative. Critique is what you make it to be. Even a simple "I didn't know that you're that good." is critique. And by the way: Even if you say "That is bad." you just do express your opinion. Your opinion is always right. But the addressee doesn't have to accept it. (He or she also should not argue about it.) Critique is a Latin based word expressing the English "feedback". It is given for an incident in the past. It is given in the present. It is given with the hope to enhance [the receiver's] behavior in the future. So if you have to express a perceived negative critique, by all means reason it. The above "That is bad" is bad critique-behavior. Phrase it so that the recipient of your opinion can understand why this is your opinion and what you think could be done to improve. Maybe it is your reasoning that leads to the road to perfection. I don't think that was 'harsh'. Must be the language barrier.
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As is so often the case... this thread is getting way off track from what David was stating in his original post (my opinion, of course).
It has transmutated into "should we be critiquing other people's work?" when all he was saying was "Why don't you guys who dump your songs in the Showcase PARTICIPATE????"
I agree that the Showcase should be focused on What Is Possible Using Band-In-A-Box. Songs in the Showcase (in particular, Steve Young's - Steve..where are you?) convinced me to buy BIAB. Over the last few years, the variety and quality of Showcase songs has expanded greatly. Hopefully, that has translated in sales of the product. The more sales, the more solid PGMusic, and the more likely that we will continue to get incredible new features, upgrades, and RealTracks....
It is time consuming to listen to all the songs that get posted. But it is as much a social network as Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, LinkedIn are... and much more personal and satisfying...
So, David's "question" is directed to those who simply dump their songs (constantly) expecting some attention, when they are not willing to put in the time required to pay attention to the other members of the community - who they expect to support them... pretty simple question....
If you take, you ought to give.
It takes a village...
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This is an interesting thread and has got me thinking over the last two days. What I am going to say here is based on my own personal situation but it may be of use to others who are in a similar position.
My musical activity has recently been curtailed. I went back to work mornings only. This was for a number of reasons but the main one was that I like the financial freedom that working for a salary brings me. I like the “thud” (as my friend who is a free-lance photographer would say) that comes from a monthly salary landing in my bank account every month. It brings me the freedom to pursue my other interests such as sailing, skiing and traveling to Band-in-a-Box meet-ups in America! That is not the topic under discussion here but is related.
Since starting work again, I have less time to devote to music. I have to decide how I am going to best spend my limited time. I am spending a quite a bit time on other social networks as well as doing live steaming and writing and recording new material. I still LOVE Band-in-a-Box and use it nearly every-day of my life. However, I feel lately that I am one of those people who is “dumping” my songs on the user forum and not commenting on other songs as I used to do. So my quandary is whether to post my new songs to the user forum at all if I am not going to make the time to listen and comment on others contributions?
I suppose it comes down to the purpose of the user forum. Is the purpose of the user showcase so that we, as users of Band-in-a-Box, can share what we produce using this amazing software (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) and from this PG Music can get new users excited about the product OR is it another social network (as was also mentioned earlier in this post)?
If it is the former, then posting songs and not commenting on others would seem “normal” while if it is the latter then this is “abnormal”. If it is the latter then whether you use the user show case as a social network will surely depend on your own personal musical goals. I am finding that the effort I am putting into other social networks where consumers of music (rather than producers of music) hang out is bearing some fruit towards my own personal goals.
All that said, this community has helped me so much over the last three years that I don’t want to lose that. But, is the Off-topic forum is a better place for people like me to hang out and not share the new stuff I am writing and recording?
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I don't post songs and seldom listen to others. Please don't misunderstand, it's not because I am not interested in the music made by my forum friends, it's because my Internet connection is too slow. I live about 3 miles from the end of the fiber optics cable which makes the quickest I can get is DSL-Light, and by the time it gets here it's full of errors. So the buffering can take what is seemingly forever. I get too impatient to sit there and wait for the buffering, hear 7 or 8 bars then have it buffer some more for perhaps 15 seconds. It's the price I pay for living in paradise. Most people around her use Cable TV, but I haven't watched TV at all since 1985, and they won't let me have Cable Internet without Cable TV. I refuse to pay an additional $50/month for something I will get absolutely no use from. Plus, if my neighbors are telling the truth, it goes down a lot. It's fast while it's up, but the rain seems to be its enemy. I gigged on cruise ships for 3 years in the late 1980s and got out of the habit of watching TV (they didn't have TV on the ships then). When I got back on land, I hooked the cable back up but in a few months I found I wasn't watching it, so I had them disconnect it. I found I'd rather do things myself than live my life vicariously by watching actors pretending to do things. Full disclosure, I have the minimum Netflix DVD in the mail account, so I watch about two rented movies per month, and that's the only time the TV gets turned on. So with my slow Internet connection and my refusal to pay $600/year additional for the TV which I won't watch, I am not able to enjoy the music of my Internet friends. But I live with a lagoon to the east, a nature preserve to the west, and my half acre lot is one of the smallest around, most others are 50-100 acres. Before zoning some guy divided half of his 56 acre lot and built a cottage per year on the other half. I was lucky enough to find this one when I was looking to buy a house. It's paid for now and worth about 4 times more than I paid for it, of course with mortgage interest, it means I've about broken even  So please don't be offended if I don't listen. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
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Some forums sites require you to comment on a certain number of other folks music before you can post....
5 or 10 listens with comments on each to one post of a song.
Fortunately, PG doesn't have such arcane rules.... so the folks here should be kind enough to comment on others music.
You don't have to be a platinum writer/producer to say simply that you liked the song and why you liked it or why you didn't. If you want to critique, try to explain your commentary as best you can. Although I can certainly see why folks might not want to critique others music..... quite a few people don't take crits very well..... but that's beside the point. And yeah, I know my crits and comments have at times, ruffled a few feathers around the User Showcase..... my apologies... uhhhhh...... no, not really. None of my comments are ever intended as a personal slam. They are my personal opinion and if they rub you the wrong way, maybe you should see if they are valid in even the most remote way.
Make the effort to listen and comment.... that's the point of this post and the forum. I can listen to every song in the forum but if I don't comment, the writers never know it. This is especially important to the new guys and gals coming in. Try not to make your first appearance in the forum as a song post and then disappear until the next song you post..... become part of the family and people will respond to your music better.
By being a part of the songs forum, participating in the posting of songs as well as the commentary and critiques on the song, you will learn a lot. You have the opportunity to ask questions for the ones who are posting radio ready music.... "Hey man, how did you do that thing right there in that song?" ... "What's your signal chain on the guitar?"..... "What reverb are you using on the BGV?".....and you will generally get an answer.
There's a whole lot of really good experience residing here in the PG forums.... but unless you ask, you can not learn. So comment..... let the posters of the songs know you're here, and share in the knowledge.
( and yes, I'm as guilty as anyone about not commenting on every song, so drag me over the coals if you wish )
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 07/31/16 02:57 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Since starting work again, I have less time to devote to music. I have to decide how I am going to best spend my limited time. I am spending a quite a bit time on other social networks as well as doing live steaming and writing and recording new material. I still LOVE Band-in-a-Box and use it nearly every-day of my life. However, I feel lately that I am one of those people who is “dumping” my songs on the user forum and not commenting on other songs as I used to do. So my quandary is whether to post my new songs to the user forum at all if I am not going to make the time to listen and comment on others contributions? I can't speak for everybody, but here's my take on your situation, Josie: You've already shown yourself to be a participant and a team player. I doubt that anybody who has a life can find time to comment on everything. The objection is toward people who dump & run consistently.
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If we look at the showcase as being an ad for BIAB, then we would want lots of participation... (whether people comment or not)
True, a culture of participation and encouragement has evolved on the forum, and I like that a lot. I hope it continues.
But the ad value of posts far outweighs the question of whether the poster replied to our songs.
For example, Recently TexasHeartRush has posted some demos that I think really showcase the capabilities of PGMusic products quite well... but he tends not to review other peoples' songs.
If I were in PGMusic's shoes, I'd want to see lots of posts like his. I certainly would NOT want to discourage him in any way from posting his work to the showcase!
The reviews are for OUR benefit, not for PGMusic's.
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Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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