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Is it just me? Since getting a laptop and going mobile in 2005, I have shared the program (the idea, not the software) and my creations with others. I have used the Jukebox and the chord sheet to do lightning jams with friends. I have created songs and edited them on the fly to demonstrate its ease of use. I have done all of this through good synths so as not to get the snark about how cheesy it sounds. Never once has anyone said, "Cool, I'll give it a look," or, "That was great, I went ahead and bought it!" The responses have been 100% negative, ranging from "I'd rather do it by hand," to "that's cheating," to "I tried it once, it's a toy," to an outright insult: "I bet you're the best accordion player in your trailer park." (WTF?) Any thoughts on my experience? I am almost hesitant to bring it up now. (I do have fun when people ask how I made something that sounds good. I just say I have a secret weapon.)  What about you? Who has had any luck in persuasion? How did you do that? Or is it the same for everyone? Enquiring minds want to know. Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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I think the reasons branch out in a lot of different directions, most of them based on personal preference and prejudice. Somebody who has acquired great skill with a coping saw might thing that using a jigsaw is cheating... but they're just different tools that help the craftsman in similar yet different ways.
My current take on the matter is to regard the misconceptions and/or narrow-mindedness of others as being THEIR problem, not mine. If the tool works for you, use it whole-heartedly. Other people are using the tools they like.
Whether the topic is religion, politics or music software, people seem highly resistant to other peoples' preferences and I don't expect that to change any time soon.
In respect for PGMusic, I acknowledge the use of the software any time I use it, and if people like what they hear, they can take it from there. Evangelizing my preferences has never worked out well for me, no matter what the topic happened to be. So at its core, I think this is less of a BIAB thang and more of a "resistance to other peoples' preferences" thang.
Or not. That just my opinion, and you are free to have a different one. ;-)
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There does seem to be an unreasonable bias against the program. I've heard the “cheating” jibe, mostly on other sites, and mostly from amateurs or hacks. It's amusing that the same people who AutoTune every note look down their noses at BIAB.  Regards, Bob
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Richard, my experience has been the same as yours. The biggest complaints I have heard about BiaB is that it looks like something from Win 3 and it's only 32 bits.
I also have heard that it is cheating. That from at least one person I know who uses loops! There is your WTF!
I will keep pushing it. I always mention on SoundCloud and other sites that BiaB was used in the making of this song.
As Pat said it is their problem not ours.
The fitness trainer asked me, "What kind of a squat are you accustomed to doing?" I said, "Diddly."
64 bit Win 11 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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eddie1261
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3 piece bands everywhere are playing with prerecorded horn, keyboard and vocal tracks so they sound like 7 pieces. This is no different.
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Never once has anyone said, "Cool, I'll give it a look," or, "That was great, I went ahead and bought it!" The responses have been 100% negative, ranging from "I'd rather do it by hand," to "that's cheating," to "I tried it once, it's a toy," to an outright insult: "I bet you're the best accordion player in your trailer park." (WTF?) That last one is funny but rude and mean! I am almost hesitant to bring it up now. In my opinion...don't bring it up; focusing on the tools distracts from your music.
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So......I'm cheating because I can't play every RT/RD like the award winning artists who created them for PG Music?? If some knucklehead suggested that to me I'd tell him to check back in after he wins grammy awards for playing multiple instruments. And, if they think it's "cheating" then they are clueless as to the amount of time that goes into the mixing side of the equation. Comping tracks, mixing and mastering IMO allow you to take RTs and RDs tracks to another level. Using it literally right out of the box is fine  but I think several folks on the User Forum are producing songs that many experienced listeners would equate with studio productions. And, I don't even explore the midi side of things...too enamored with RT's! I'm privileged to have known some really ace musicians for years and they have been uniformly impressed with what I've accomplished with BiaB RT's and RD's...and they'd tell me in a New York minute if they weren't. But, hell, I live out in the provinces so perhaps I don't run into the snobs I credit BiaB on all of our videos and extoll its virtues any time I get a chance. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Biab shows up on time to every gig and recording session.
Doesn't get drunk and and out of time.
Doesn't run off with the bass players wife.
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Biab shows up on time to every gig and recording session.
Doesn't get drunk and and out of time.
Doesn't run off with the bass players wife.
As a bass player with a wonderful wife that is another reason to use it! Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Biab ...
Doesn't get drunk and and out of time.
...
Funny, but I remember in the earliest days of RealDrums, that one was actually false. The state of the art in PCs ten years ago was such that things like wireless mice or misbehaving network cards could cause latency problems in digital audio. I used to describe the resulting sound as "having the drummer playing while falling down stairs"! I'm glad we're almost completely past that sort of problem now. My experience as a BIAB evangelist may be different from most of you because, while I can play horns, I do not play piano, guitar, bass or drums. Thus, composing, or at least checking what I composed, was difficult. I received tons of inquiries about how I wrote all the songs on my CD, and the answer that surprised everyone was BIAB. I know I was responsible for some sales. Richard, I will never be close to the best accordion player in any trailer park, but I've had a good run with music. For the last 24 years, BIAB has had a lot to do with that.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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So true what you're all saying! In my experience many musicians tried BIAB a long while back when to be honest the instruments were cheesy and they haven't come back. I was in the same boat myself until I discovered realtracks and now I see the future. I'm happy to talk up BIAB to a receptive audience but otherwise fondly refer to my 'band' as Matcham and Jackson Family in promo material.
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All of the above and (sorry if I missed it) but I truly feel some people are afraid of it in the sense that they would not get the same results as many of us do. I know crazy but I am reading that in-between many detractors lines of conversations.
I feel sorry for theses cats. I have one guy who despises the use of tracks on an online venue I play. I also might ad that I see he and his band doing 4/5 gigs a year while me and BIAB are booked 75 - 100 nights a year not counting eConcerts. I seriously feel sorry for some of these cats.
Later,
Last edited by Danny C.; 10/22/16 06:36 PM. Reason: corrected spell check mistake
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Great answers! I think I'll take the time I used to talk about it, and just use it instead.
Yeah—that's the ticket!
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Funny thing, there is a guy on the BNB Facebook page today questioning the 'quality' of BNB. It is easily seen he is one of the above mentioned naysayers mentioned in above posts. I referred him to the User Showcase to satisfy his demands to hear what can be done with BNB. I haven't been back to see if he has posted a response.
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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My take on this is, If you are going to record a song say in a studio you will hire the best musicians possible (even though you may be a musician yourself, but you can't play everything) Provided you have the money and means to do so. No different with biab, you are hiring those guys to play, only thing is you pay them once a year. Musiclover
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I have had the same problem in the NYC school system. People that are deep into music, AND 'techies' LOOOOVE it and feel a personal challenge learn to use it. People that are not....have issues.
I have found the following spcecific little challenges - in isolation, or in group:
1.) The interface - is OUTSTANDING for a power user - everything is one click away. It's overwhelming for a beginner. There are 40+ ? buttons. Unless you walk them through it and show them EXACTLY which 3 to 5 buttons to hit in EXACTLY what order, and what to pick in the submenus.
--suggestion: Include "simple" interface options - hides ALL button toolbars, and allows a user to Pick from a list of custom SMALL toolbars designed for various uses of the program....e.g. the simplest would be "PLay Along" - only 5 or so buttons - 1.) SONG Open (via songpicker) - notice I intentionally did not put FILE open 2.) some voiceover instructions about selecting a song of interest (e.g. maybe highlight only titles and keys - don't confuse them with other columns)
3.) "What Next" button - explaining how to listen, mute the solo instrument, and then play along.
2.) When one opens the most important screens - songpicker or stylepicker - it is not intuitive to a beginner (someone who hasn't read the manual or about the program) what they are going to get or HOW they should use the loaded song...eg "Walk Me Through" button
--> suggestion: 1.) see above - 2.) to elaborate --> video tutorial MACROS with voiceovers that point to the buttons/menu items to press with pointers that the user has to actually execute (e.g. click) , and voiceovers and BIG MENU with buttons giving instruction 'options' about what to do next and why in terms of HOW to use the program productively. I've found that people don't read manuals or watch the YouTube videos unless they ALREADY have a high motivation to learn the program
3.) MANY of my highly skilled musician friends prefer iReal pro over BB - one factor is price - another is I believe simplicity - even though the backing arrangements are baby-sounding compared to BB.
suggestion: create a cheaper, phone-based BB that is equally simple as iReal pro, but includes the beautifully sophisticated arrangements as current BB. Remove all "generation" features - average users don't care - just want some good backing tracks to practice or jam with...in fact - remove EVERYTHING except the good sounding backing tracks....(of course - I'm not so sure that's so easy for PG to do - or I think they would have done it a long time ago)
Just my 26 cents worth : )
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Just read a few more of your posts -
1.) the user interface - these poor PG guys can't get away from the look and feel of the user interface looking 'old' (then again - I'm old, so I focus on useablity and function, and I find it very well done). Their issue is really 'style' - think Apple vs. Windows).
2.) agreed - many people HAVE used the programs MANY years ago and you know what they say about "First Impressions" - it has stayed with these people for 10+ years
suggestion: 1.) change the UI - get a UI expert from the 'state of the art' music UI group (PS - I don't even know what people consider state of the art UI's these days)
2.) ONce you have the new UI - start a new company, with a new name, and give the program a new title - so nobody knows and new "First Impressions" can be made.
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Well, some interesting observations.
So.... I don't mention who did my tracks on a song unless someone specifically asks. Once they ask, I tell them how I did those tracks.
I've been in the forums where BB is considered "cheating". So the response I give them is, "Do you play all the tracks on your music?" The obvious answer to that is "no".
So if you used a drum synth, or a bass synth, or even hired another musician to play it for you.... isn't that essentially "cheating" too?
I don't waste my time anymore arguing or discussing the use of BB as cheating.
There's at least 2 folks here in this forum because they heard the music I was creating with BB, liked it, and got involved. I didn't try to convince either or hard sell them on what a great tool BB was. I simply showed them what it could do when they heard my music.
Aside from this forum, (Showcase) I don't list any of the tracks and who played or how they were recorded. Many of the old-timers on the other forums know me and know I use BB and as I listen there to others music, I hear more of them slowly starting to incorporate BB into their projects as well.
I've found in life this truth.... You can't convince someone to do, or buy something they don't see as a value to them personally. They gotta want it themselves first.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I don't evangelize, but I do demonstrate to other musicians if they seem interested.
Some of them say "It's cheating", some are interested and I don't know if they end up with it or not, and I have turned it on more than a few people who have purchased it. Including a teacher who uses it in the classroom.
The teacher has invited me to school a couple of times and the kids seem very enthusiastic about it.
There will always be resistance to something different for those who developed a skill that it might be replacing.
You can offer them the benefits, and either they take it or leave it.
I find not being too enthusiastically about it when demonstrating it is most effective.
I used to resell BiaB, back when it was on disk. I also found I sold more when I didn't sell it myself, but referred them to PG Music. As soon as they found out I was profiting by selling it, the wall went up. So I don't sell it anymore, but refer them to PG Music. Then when the find out how wonderful the app is, I can sell them my style and fake collections.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I like JoeV's idea but would apply it differently in BNB. i would not create a new program, just a new included feature on how BNB is accessed.
BNB should create a Quick Start Tutorial that takes a beginner through creating and inputting a complete song demonstrating features along the way by guiding the 'student' to select the buttons via highlights or arrows. A hands on creation rather than watch a tutorial. Some existing tutorials were done long ago and there are confusing differences between the graphics. Startup of BNB would be either Quick Start or Normal.
A selection button could be added to the splash screen at startup allowing the user to select Quick Start or Normal start up. This would provide new users guided help creating their first song or their 50th song simply by selecting Quick Start rather than Normal.
For advanced users, the splash screen should have the choice to opt out having to click Normal each start up by selecting "Don't show this screen at Startup"
The Quick Start Song could have the yellow/green messages to guide and explain selections of "if you want to change key or tempo" ; To add more bars to your song"; "Let's add some Reverb"; "Let's mute the guitar on the solo track".
Charlie
BIAB 2025:RB 2025, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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