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(*I did search for this topic, but did not find it previously addressed. If it has been, please point me to that thread.)
QUESTION: Do you guys peel back the instruments just to do your vocals sometimes? Maybe even use instruments for the vocal recording that would not be in your final mix.
This might be because of my bad hearing, I'm old as dirt, or a product of the way my home studio is set up with lower-end equipment (I do have a sound controlled room with no bounce-back, several mics and several headphone models I try).
To keep me too off key, I find that I need to sing against fewer instruments, that don't overwhelm my hearing/voice, like a light, consistent percussion for the beat like just side sticks or shakers, and keys with held cords, with a rhythm instrument(maybe guitar, but not anything solo) low enough so I can hear myself, but loud enough to keep me in the melody. Then I add the track to the DAW and add instruments to see what does and doesn't work.
The drawback for me is then the vocals sound lighter than the full version with all the true instruments added in.
How do you guys handle producing vocals? And my voice is not pristine and flute-like, so I can't have great expectations for it, but I wondered if there are any tips out there in BIABland.
Thanks for any input.
Andy
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" Do you guys peel back the instruments just to do your vocals sometimes? Maybe even use instruments for the vocal recording that would not be in your final mix."
Yes. Some people do best with just a spare track with just drums, guitar and bass. The bass is important in keeping you in key.
"The drawback for me is then the vocals sound lighter than the full version with all the true instruments added in."
How do you guys handle producing vocals? And my voice is not pristine and flute-like, so I can't have great expectations for it, but I wondered if there are any tips out there in BIABland. "
When you say 'lighter', do you mean "thinner"? You can fatten the vocal up with some judicious compression.
Regards,
Bob
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Thank you, Bob.
I should have tried to be clearer. Example, for the past 3 months I've been trying to get a vocal track I can stand for an upbeat song I really like. When I pull the instruments back or thin them out (and leaving the bass in is a great suggestion), my voice sounds like I would normally perform a song. I'm a solo, mostly sparse fingerpicking guitarist, so there's not a lot to sing over. When I take that vocal track and plug in a drum kit and more rousing instruments, I sound like a mouse.
I think I have enough power to carry an upbeat song, but in the studio context, I'm having problems. Not a perfect example, take James Taylor's voice in "Sweet Baby James" or pretty much any of his early works, then stick it in a fuller band situation.
Andy
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And I don't know much about compression. I am learning, but I haven't found videos with comparable instructions on YouTube. They seem pointed more at rock-ier songs.
I should ask a local studio engineer for a few hands on lessons.
Andy
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Thank you, Bob.
I should have tried to be clearer. Example, for the past 3 months I've been trying to get a vocal track I can stand for an upbeat song I really like. When I pull the instruments back or thin them out (and leaving the bass in is a great suggestion), my voice sounds like I would normally perform a song. I'm a solo, mostly sparse fingerpicking guitarist, so there's not a lot to sing over. When I take that vocal track and plug in a drum kit and more rousing instruments, I sound like a mouse.
I think I have enough power to carry an upbeat song, but in the studio context, I'm having problems. Not a perfect example, take James Taylor's voice in "Sweet Baby James" or pretty much any of his early works, then stick it in a fuller band situation.
It would help if you could list your signal chain. (Mic, pre, effects.) You really need to understant compression and EQ though. What DAW are you using? Regards, Bob
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Puleeezzzzeeee. Just think as light of equipment as you can imagine.
I have a Beringer B-1 mic. I use a R16 Zoom recorder/interface. Dry.
No exterior effect units.
I leave BIAB dry), and (stop it...don't laugh...stop)DAW with MixPad.
I have other DAWs, but I'm not a tech guy and obviously not a mixing engineer. MixPad/WavePad are simpler, and I'm just learning about them. Certainly that could be part of the problem. I have the forward and pause down. Yes, I've watched the videos for the other DAWs, but they seem to jump from plug into power socket, right in the middle of mixing. It's beyond me. I find RB just as baffling. Even without the music side of things, it seems all I do, every day, is troubleshoot technology.
I apply reverb to all instrument tracks in MixPad. I can't get it right on vocals, though. They just become echo-y. And I'm just shooting in the dark for their settings, decay and diffuse, wet-dry. I don't have any reference point to begin with.
I've monkeyed around with EQ, so can do that a bit. I just started trying compression, high pass usually around 100hz, which seems to bring things into a reasonable level.
If I'm just to much of a beginner for you to even start with, no worries, I understand. But thanks for your comments and questions. Anything is helpful.
Andy
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Andy,
It may seem overwheliming at first, but once you get the hang of it it's very rewarding. You have BB2016, so you already have RealBand. It's a full-featured DAW with a ton of features.
Don't give up! There are a bunch of great people here who will help you, not to mention PG staff.
I have a lot of plugins, programs, etc. and I normally mix with only EQ, compression and reverb. The thing to remember is "less is more".
Have you played around with RealBand much yet? That's where I would start.
Regards,
Bob
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If I really need to nail notes, I will record a guide track of a more pure sound than my own voice. For example, I will record a synth lead melody that I can use to help guide me, otherwise I will sing flat - almost guaranteed.
There are the other tricks you might know about - add some reverb to your voice as you are recording it and feed that into your headphones, pull off one ear of the headphones and do the 'guide your voice from your mouth to your ear with a hand' trick. This helps you hear more than just your bone-conducted head voice, which for many people if they just hear that, will go a little flat (I do) while recording with headphones covering both ears.
For thickening, you can also try doubling either with a sung line timed just exactly like the first, or even whispering the line and turning the level way down of the doubled whispered track, but just enough to support the main track.
-Scott
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The Mac version of BB2016 does not include RB, as I recall. There are great tutorials on compressors on YouTube or recording sites. Fellow forumite, Mac, wrote a very comprehensive article on compression that I will find for you if you don't have success in finding your answers. I usually record a separate vocal track dry then do microsurgery in a DAW (Even Audacity (free)) does a nice job. Certainly RB would do fine. Basic compression guide: http://www.homestudiocenter.com/how-to-use-a-compressor-plus-10-top-tips/
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Thanks, Bob. Yeah I do have RB and gave it a run or two. And I don't recall where it derailed me, but there's was something I just couldn't get past, something simple. I should probably drill down into it. I know that the instruments sound better, slightly crisper when they are in BIAB and RB than when I put the tracks in MixPad. I will try RB with the next project, if I survive this one.
Scott, those are fantastic suggestions. Thank you very much. I'd used held keys for that, similarly, but the strike of the key was right when I needed to start the line, so sometimes it was hard to hear me at the same time. It's like I needed it syncopated with the held note a beat or a half beat before the lyric.
But a synth....great suggestion...something subtle and continuous...
I do a lot with the one headphone, or at least do a track that way, then with both, but reverb added is new, so I will add that...veeeery interesting.
Thanks, Don. I have a PC so RB is loaded and cobwebbed. Honestly, I'd looked at all the compression videos I could find. They just start beyond my knowledge, like somebody gives me road map for a winding 1000 mile journey, but the first 500 miles are missing.
(*I just looked at the link, Don. It is great! Thanks.)
Thanks, guys.
Last edited by Andy A - USA; 11/06/16 04:13 PM.
Andy
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Hi Andy, Check out this video on vocal compression using two compressors on your vocal. It's easy to follow using any stock compressor. http://therecordingrevolution.com/mixing-vocals-to-sit-upfront/Another easy alternative is to apply compression using a 4:1 ratio and set your threshold to max peak at 6db of gain reduction. That is easier to hear until you learn to hear it - then you can go lower ratios and lower gain reduction and start messing with attack and release times. It was a nice tip I picked up somewhere along the way. If anything's distracting, I'll turn it down while I'm singing. I like to keep the rhythm track especially drums up so I'm always where I want to be with the beat.
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THANKS?, Josie! I'll check out the link.
Andy
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Andy,
Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts in audio recording. You have to learn the basics, terminology, what a compressor does, etc. There are online courses, but this might be a better option:
"I should ask a local studio engineer for a few hands on lessons."
If you live in an area with some decent studios, that would be a great option. If you could find someone who is familiar with RealBand, that would be ideal. Hands-on is the best way to learn this stuff.
Regards,
Bob
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When I record vocals, the rest of the mix is generally done. In other words, I record and mix in the vocals last. There might be a few tweaks to the other instruments after the vocals go in but nothing major. I like singing to the finished, full band mix.
Your vocal should set comfortably in with the existing mix of instruments. Bob mentioned compression. You absolutely need to know how it works, what it does, and also learn to use it effectively and not to the point where it damages the mix by having too much compression.
Another "cure" for thin weak vocals is to use layering or doubling along with the proper levels of compression. That's possibly another thread in itself.
And don't forget to use compression and gain riding on the instruments. They need to pretty much maintain a relatively consistent level in the mix... especially the rhythm section.... bass, drums, and acoustic guitars...etc.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Join The Recording Revolution and you will learn a lot about recording. This is a free blog with videos on every aspect of recording. There just was a seven week tutorial on EQ and now there is one on compression. Graham's explanations start at a novices level and then works up. I have learned a ton of information from his blogs.
My momma didn't raise a fool. And if she did it, was one of my brothers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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A wealth of info. Thank you all. I did look at the info in the link Don and Josie supplied. It is helpful with understanding the premise of gain and high/low. I hope when I get somewhat dialed into my "style" it will create a range that works for me, XXb to YYb for this and 86% to 125% for that.
Doubling is a great idea! Thank you Herb and Scott.
Yes, Bob, I do wish I could find a local BIAB/RB expert. There are many studios here, most are small operations and I know some of the engineers/owners. I'll ask around.
I don't want to sound too weird(er), and it's not love, but I'm feeling something for all of you. So greatly appreciate the time you took and advice you gave. Lots of things for me to try.
Andy
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Hi Andy, I'd like to share some resources I've found to be helpful. ++ Coursera - The Technology of Music Production ++ This is an introduction to music production. The online course is broken into 6 segments with each segment presented one a week. The course is FREE if you decide to audit the course instead of receiving certification. All the information (videos, script, pdf files, etc.) can be downloaded for offline review and future reference and it is well worth the time and effort to download. This course is a great place to begin learning about music production. Just having the information presented in a clear, concise and well thought out form makes absorbing the information much easier than trying to learn it haphazardly. The next session begins November 14. ++ The Art Of Music Production ++ A companion to the course above. This is a four week course with an emphasis on critical listening, arrangement and how to put a song together so it sounds interesting to everyone. ++ Play With Your Music ++ An online, course by New York and Steinhardt universities.
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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This is perhaps only peripherally related... Janice likes to sing with a near finished mix. She sorta riffs off of the rhythm instruments, fills and solos. Meaning her phrasing often is significantly affected by what else is happening in the mix. We use Nectar 2 for vocal processing...mostly, as folks have mentioned, compression, eq and reverb with the occasional delay added. Nectar has wonderful presets, i.e., you select your vocal style and let it do its thing. Often no or only minimal tweaking is necessary for the preset. As others have mentioned a solid DAW and a few plug-ins can take you a long way. Of course you will eventually reach the point where like cow bell you can't have too much in the way of plug-ins.  Have fun on the journey. Bud
Our albums and singles are on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, YouTube Music, Pandora and more. If interested search on Janice Merritt. Thanks! Our Videos are here on our website.
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Thank you, Jim and Bud. I feel like I see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Even just a little help is great. Baby steps. It seems to be a little more natural every day.
Andy
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Thank you, Jim and Bud. I feel like I see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Even just a little help is great. Baby steps. It seems to be a little more natural every day. This stuff is more addictive than heroin. And heroin eventually kills you; this stuff just makes you spend all of your money.  Regards, Bob
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