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LOL! Good one Joe. I haven't played covers in a long time but when I did, we'd play current songs and oldies because that's what our audience liked. So I might not like a song and consider it disposable but I think only time really tells what songs most of the public wants to keep hearing. My own personal taste is that if I'm going to see a tribute or show band then I expect to see and hear a live rendition as close as possible to the record. Otherwise I don't care if a cover is exact and usually enjoy it unless the new arrangement is so different that the song is unrecognizeable to me or so far from my taste that I just don't relate to it. When I was a kid I fell in music love with a BJ Thomas' song called Hooked On A Feeling. It played in my head night and day. Then several years later another group had a radio hit with the same song where they added this weird boom a chacka chanting throughout the song. I hated what they'd done to the song I had loved so much. Apparently somebody liked it because that monstrosity was a radio hit. Me, I'd change the station whenever it came on. That version still grates my nerves to this day. So if you should ever cover Hooked On A Feeling please don't add the booma a chacka or warn me ahead of time so I can opt out of hearing it. 
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There are definitely 2 camps of listeners - the average listener, IMHO, likes to hear the song the way the producer arranged it on the record; when I like I song - I'm as in love with the arrangement as I am with the harmony, melody, and words.
Many musicians, however - much prefer to change it and put their own stamp on it. Generally, IMHO, the AVERAGE listener would prefer the recorded arrangement. The REALLY good musicians (and I know we have a few on here) - they can change it around and put their stamp on it, and the song will STILL sound really good. But the average musician is not as good at this - and will put their own stamp on it because they really have no choice - they are not good enough to copy it closely to the recorded version, and their rendition is often not equal to or better than the original production/arrangement.
...just one man's opinion....but who else agrees with me ?
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Jim Fogle, Joanne Cooper, Peter and Joe V - I will send the link in PM. Check your messages.
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Scott sorry to jump in so late but I've been following this thread and I'd love to see the arrangement for Falling as well. Great song and interesting approach you have to deconstruction.
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There are definitely 2 camps of listeners - the average listener, IMHO, likes to hear the song the way the producer arranged it on the record; when I like I song - I'm as in love with the arrangement as I am with the harmony, melody, and words.
Many musicians, however - much prefer to change it and put their own stamp on it. Generally, IMHO, the AVERAGE listener would prefer the recorded arrangement. The REALLY good musicians (and I know we have a few on here) - they can change it around and put their stamp on it, and the song will STILL sound really good. But the average musician is not as good at this - and will put their own stamp on it because they really have no choice - they are not good enough to copy it closely to the recorded version, and their rendition is often not equal to or better than the original production/arrangement.
...just one man's opinion....but who else agrees with me ? I have to disagree with you on this one Joe. Certainly I may be one of those musicians who does not have the musicianship to be able to reproduce the exact note for note arrangement of a cover. To be quite frank I do not want to sound like the original. (This would disqualify me from covering all of John Denver, Bob Dylan and many other male artists whose songs I like to sing.) I want to sound like ME. I don’t want to sound equal or better than the original. I want to sound like ME. I love to produce these songs and I love to perform them and if there are only 10 people in the world who like my music, so be it. Just think of an artist like Eva Cassidy. She is a great guitar player but I doubt very much she would have the musicianship to able to play Stairway to Heaven note for note and if she had tried I doubt we would ever have known about her. You can also bet your bottom dollar that when she started out she was not able to produce her outstanding interpretations of popular classics. The jury is probably still out about whether her versions are "equal to or better than the original production/arrangement" depending on whether people like the music of EVA CASSIDY (not the music of John Lennon, Sting or the multitude of artists whose songs she choose to cover). My opinion is a little like the Nike advert, Just do it. Don’t try to copy. Do your own thing and do it with conviction and the chances are it will rub off on others.
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If all are honest, most pop tunes over the decades are disposable. Pick a decade, doesn't matter, lots of same old same old copy of whatever was hot prior month. . I guesstimated 90%. But if your market is not Top40 pop or Top40 country, you don't have to learn every week's disposable song. The ones that faded in a month or so are optional, and already faded. You can concentrate on the 10% that have become classics for the generation. Insights and incites by Notes
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LOL! Good one Joe. I haven't played covers in a long time but when I did, we'd play current songs and oldies because that's what our audience liked. So I might not like a song and consider it disposable but I think only time really tells what songs most of the public wants to keep hearing.
My own personal taste is that if I'm going to see a tribute or show band then I expect to see and hear a live rendition as close as possible to the record. Otherwise I don't care if a cover is exact and usually enjoy it unless the new arrangement is so different that the song is unrecognizeable to me or so far from my taste that I just don't relate to it. <...snip...> Tribute bands have taken the pressure off the rest of us. When I was new to Top40, we had to be a Beatles tribute band, Elvis tribute band, Orbison tribute band, Motown tribute band, BeeGees tribute band and so on. We had the biggest agent in Miami, Walter B Walters who said in his gruff voice, "They made a million dollars on that record and you think you can do it any better?" whenever we tried to change something. Personally, I don't mind doing cover songs and trying to sound like the original recording. In time they all seem to drift away in varying degrees. My personality and style slowly sneaks in. I enjoy reinterpreting songs as well. Back when I was in a Jazz band, and the song "Misty" was required, we did the A A section in a Jazz Waltz style, the B section in a nice Jazz swing, last A waltz. They we did the solos in all swing. To close it was A A waltz, B swing and last A swing as well. It was never better than that. Today I like doing Jimmy Buffett's "Son Of A Son Of A Sailor" as a Reggae, Stevie Wonder's "You Are The Sunshine Of My Life" as a jazz swing and so on. I like doing covers too. It's all music, it's all good, it's all fun. I play to the audience, whatever works for them is good for me. I feel I'm both an artist and a craftsman and don't even bother to think about when I cross the line from one to the other or even know where that line might be. All I know is that playing music for a living is the most fun I can have with my clothes on, and I've been blessed with enough luck to be able to do that for the vast majority of my life so far. When the sax is in my mouth, the guitar in my hands, the microphone in my face and I'm making music, there is no place, there is no time, there is no me there is just the music and the bliss. It doesn't get any better than that. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
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...........
When the sax is in my mouth, the guitar in my hands, the microphone in my face and I'm making music, there is no place, there is no time, there is no me there is just the music and the bliss. It doesn't get any better than that.
Insights and incites by Notes
Absolutely, playing music is the ultimate high for me also.
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer.
It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
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Joe V, Sometimes the recording that is original to you (i.e. the first recording of the song you heard) is NOT the original song recording. Many artists re-record a song the artist help make famous. Sometimes because the artist does not own the performance copyright and other times because the artist recorded multiple versions but only one was released at the time the song was popular. Randy VanWarmer wrote "Just When I Needed You Most" and recorded it as a pop song in 1979 and rerecorded the song as a country song. Country artists Tim McGraw and Dolly Parton also have had hits with the song. BJ Thomas had a huge crossover hit (pop, rock and country) with the Hank Williams song, "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry". The hit version had horns and violin backing tracks. An alternate release was intended for the country audience. It replaced the horns with pedal steel guitar but did not sell. A song sometimes is so good the song will be recorded by multiple artists. Examples include "Mother Nature's Son" by The Beatles & John Denver or "Got To Get You In My Life" by The Beatles & Earth, Wind and Fire. Guitar player Duane Eddy had an instrumental hit with the Peter Gunn theme song in 1959 and again in collaboration with musical group The Art Of Noise in 1986. All are excellent song versions but you most likely favor one version over the other of each song. So when you ask how close to the original can BiaB get; which original are you asking about?
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Good points Jim. Sometimes the cover version became a hit by copying the original such as: Elvira Or steeling not only the melody but also the riffs: Susie Q to name a couple.
Whenever I get something stuck in the back of my throat, I dislodge it by drinking a beer.
It's called the Heineken Maneuver.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Joe V, Sometimes the recording that is original to you (i.e. the first recording of the song you heard) is NOT the original song recording. Many artists re-record a song the artist help make famous. Sometimes because the artist does not own the performance copyright and other times because the artist recorded multiple versions but only one was released at the time the song was popular. Randy VanWarmer wrote "Just When I Needed You Most" and recorded it as a pop song in 1979 and rerecorded the song as a country song. Country artists Tim McGraw and Dolly Parton also have had hits with the song. BJ Thomas had a huge crossover hit (pop, rock and country) with the Hank Williams song, "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry". The hit version had horns and violin backing tracks. An alternate release was intended for the country audience. It replaced the horns with pedal steel guitar but did not sell. A song sometimes is so good the song will be recorded by multiple artists. Examples include "Mother Nature's Son" by The Beatles & John Denver or "Got To Get You In My Life" by The Beatles & Earth, Wind and Fire. Guitar player Duane Eddy had an instrumental hit with the Peter Gunn theme song in 1959 and again in collaboration with musical group The Art Of Noise in 1986. All are excellent song versions but you most likely favor one version over the other of each song. So when you ask how close to the original can BiaB get; which original are you asking about? Exactly Jim. You hit the nail on the head. If you don't at least try to create something "original" from someone else's song how will you ever make progress?
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secondhandsongs.com is a good place to go if you want to see who actually did the original, and often it's not the one you know. It could be from an obscure artist or it could have been a hit for an older generation.
Even The Beatles "Twist And Shout", "'Till There Was You", "You Really Got A Hold On Me", "Rock And Roll Music", "Roll Over Beethoven" and others were covers or reinterpretations of previous versions.
The one that was popular when you were young tends to be the one you think of as 'original'.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Joe Cocker comes to mind.
Bob
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Even The Beatles "Twist And Shout", "'Till There Was You", "You Really Got A Hold On Me", "Rock And Roll Music", "Roll Over Beethoven" and others were covers or reinterpretations of previous versions. Do you know how many people thought 'Til There Was You was a Beatles original because they had never been exposed to theater and never saw The Music Man? I wonder if Meredith Willson made any money on that? He was only 60 something when the Beatles cover came out in 1963. The Beatles made no bones about being huge Chuck Berry and Little Richard fans. And Harrison loved the rockabilly guys like Carl Perkins. They did a lot of cover music early on. I never cared about this until college when I started taking some songwriting classes. That was when I developed the attitude that I would never be fulfilled playing only other people's songs any more than I would sit at my (then) typewriter and type in A Tale Of Two Cities verbatim. It's someone else's thoughts, and I feel like a much more complete musician when I can express my own thoughts. Now, I haven't done that much if that yet (I wrote 15 songs for that first CD and used 9) as for my whole playing career I played copy music. (I retired from that in 1994.) But that's just my opinion. I am aware that 99% of the players out there don't agree, and I have heard every opposing point of view. "Clubs don't want you to play originals." "People don't want to hear originals." "The crowd wants to be able to sing along." And all the similar yada yada. My reply to that is always "Then book clubs that promote local songwriters and be willing to accept that your money will come from CD sales IF your songs are good enough. The singer from the band I play reunion shows with (who is a user here) wrote all of the 14 originals we play. The people have been listening to them for so long, and they all own the CD, that they sing along to every one of them and nobody throws empty bottles at us when we play them. That is because they are outstanding songs. Your average audience member doesn't want to hear BAD originals. In my area the songwriting circles are well attended and well received. A few clubs, one owned by an awesome woman, prefer original bands and won't book tribute acts. Of course on blues nights you head the Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson stuff, but even those bands pull out maybe 40% of their own stuff. I just don't go see copy bands because they all play the same 50 songs, and why would I drive to hear somebody play stuff that I own on CDs performed by the real band? I won't even go see Journey sing Don't Stop Believin' because Journey is now a tribute band to themselves. But again, that's me. I prefer to hear songwriters.
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Personally, I'm glad I don't have to rely on originals to work.
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Personally, I'm glad I don't have to rely on originals to work. That's a very important comment. If I made my living playing music I might feel differently. However, I would never be happy, and I would never cave in to the trend of having 3 people on stage and 8 prerecorded tracks being mixed in from the board, though I have done that in a 3 song set at songwriter night. I would be very unhappy playing what amounts to live karaoke, so I don't do it. Nobody wants to go into a club and see a guy with a long face on stage "entertaining" them.
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We all have different tastes and desires.
I am an excellent musician and a very good arranger. I can improvise moving solos, but I am a lousy song writer. I haven't come up with anything that pleases me. My big weakness is lyrics. They always sound corny and trite.
I have done a couple of comedy songs though, but we play them for fun. It seems if I'm being goofy and not trying to be serious more comes out.
I use my arranging skills and creativity to make aftermarket Band-in-a-Box styles. I get great satisfaction by creating a style and tweaking it until it works with BiaB. I've also done a bit of 'for-hire' work for a couple of other auto-arrangers, but they aren't as much fun as BiaB because BiaB's StyleMaker gives me more tools to work with and makes a better end product when used in a song.
I do enjoy putting my take on other people's songs and when it comes time for me to improvise a solo, it's bliss.
When I was in cover bands, I enjoyed playing songs 'like the hit record' but my solos were almost always improvised. Many were like what Santana did to Peter Green's "Black Magic Woman" solo; take some of the themes from the original and build a new solo around them. Others complete complete improvs, and a few of them nailing the original. It was all fun. I still do it like that but more are complete improvs now. Sometimes I take the opening phrase from the famous solo and then go totally me after that. I think that gives the audience a good intro to an improv solo.
To denigrate someone who plays cover tunes is a slam to every classical musician and most jazz players - telling them their art form is not worthy. (And I definitely know that is not you are doing Eddie - others have and I'm just making a point).
Song writing and song playing are two different skills. Some people are blessed with both. Irving Berlin wrote a zillion songs, some of them great ones, and he could only play the piano in one key, and I've heard couldn't play it well in that key.
I have nothing against the musician who plays his/her own songs. Actually, I'm impressed and a little envious of those who can do both. I do know it's tougher to get work that way, as most people who hire bands hire them to play memories. But to some people the creation is more important, and that's good.
It's all good, and it's all a matter of preference. There is more than one right way to make music.
The important thing to do is to play music.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Well I think (though I agree its nice to be able to write and maybe perform some of you own songs to an audience) that it would probably be annoying to have to go out for a nights entertainment and have a band push mostly their own little known songs into your face
Even some of the well knows people who have made it do this, and I find myself thinking please play some thing we know.
Musiclover
Last edited by musiclover; 11/09/16 04:37 AM.
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I had a guy request that we play a song called "Somewhere Else". I said we didn't know it, and he said "Couldn't you play somewhere else?"
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))) Irving Berlin wrote a zillion songs, some of them great ones, and he could only play the piano in one key, and I've heard couldn't play it well in that key. Yes, Irving Berlin only played in the key of Gb. But he invented a transposing piano and used it to play in all keys You can see him demo it here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bO8VZoRw214
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
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