PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Is there a proper 6/8 guitar RT anywhere?

There is a clear distinction between the time sig that music is PLAYED in vs. the time sig that it is NOTATED in. This has been true, literally since the Middle Ages (more on that below).

So if a style is played in 12/8, it can either be notated in 4/4 or 12/8, and this is a standard convention, not something that BiaB thought up. For example, traditional jazz music is written in 4/4 but played in 12/8. Such music may be annotated "with a swing" or similar, but the swing also may be assumed. The last sentence in bold is a direct quote from Wikipedia, and illustrates my point. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_(jazz_performance_style)

Any music that is played in a triplet feel (3 divisions per note), is considered compound time. This is found in all BiaB styles that are jazz swing, shuffle, irish jig, or any style with a triplet (compound, 12/8) feel. There are about 1,300 BiaB styles like this that are played in 12/8, but notated in 4/4. For any triplet feel 4/4 style, the composer can notate it in 12/8 or 4/4 as a personal choice. For example, jazz swing music would be a candidate to be wriitten in 12/8, since it is a compound (triplet) feel style. Instead, the notation gets a marking at the beginning that (8th notes get played as triplets, with the first one twice as LONG and the second one SHORT). Irish jigs have the same feel as jazz swing, but since the melodies have more triplets, (and it is the melody that gets notated), the tradition is that this gets notated in 12/8 for Irish jigs. But this has nothing to do with how they are played. It is more like a decision to use double spacing vs single spacing for a speech you're writing out (it will sound the same when read out loud).

The idea of using a 4/4 time signature to display a triplet feel 4/4 style, instead of using 12/8 has been going on since the Middle Ages. This is called "Notes inégales". Most of the time it refers to playing two 8th notes in a triplet feel, with the first one LONG and the second one SHORT. And this convention allows the music to be written in 4/4 instead of 12/8, This started with early noation of Gregorian chants, and then baroque music. and it reappeared as the standard performance practice in the 20th century in jazz.
The last sentence in bold is a direct quote from Wikipedia, and you can read about it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notes_in%C3%A9gales

Anyway, the point for BiaB is, there is no requirement to notate triplet feels in 12/8, and considering a Irish Jig to be in 4/4 ((instead of 6/8) is no harder than considering a jazz tune like Alexander's Rag Time Band to be in 4/4 (instead of 12/8).

So, in repsonse to the original poster. There are 1,320 styles in Band-in-a-Box that are triplet feel eighth note styles, which make then 12/8 playing styles. And there are 93 styles that have guitar and have also been marked by us as 12/8 (see those below)

It really depends how "triplet-y" you want, and if you're looking for some really triplet-y ones, you could use the text filter and type in 12/8 guitar . If you do that, here's a list of 93 of the 1,320 Swing 8ths styles that have been flagged to work well with 12/8 and all have guitar. I've included links to the demos, so you can listen for yourself.


93 12/8 guitar styles , that are found using a text filter of 12/8 guitar in stylepicker for BiaB 2016

Name Long Name Tempo Demo URL

RealStyles (all RealInstruments, no MIDI)

_128P50S 50's 12/8 Pop 85 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_128P50S.m4a
_SPOP128 12/8 Soul Pop 85 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_SPOP128.m4a
_SPTRIO1 12/8 Soul Pop Trio 85 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_SPTRIO1.m4a
_TBLZBSS Slow 12/8 Bari Sax Solo Blues 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_TBLZBSS.m4a
_TBLZSEV Slow 12/8 Blues w/ Vintage Piano 85 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_TBLZSEV.m4a
_BLZ12PA Bluesy Acoustic Piano 12/8 w/ Band 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_BLZ12PA.m4a
_MANS128 Mandolin Solo 12/8 Country Swing 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_MANS128.m4a
_BMCS128 Country 12/8 Piano w/ Guitar Solo 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_BMCS128.m4a
_RESS128 Resonator Solo & Piano 12/8 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_RESS128.m4a
_PNOC128 Acoustic Piano 12/8 Country 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_PNOC128.m4a
_GUITBLZ Country Blues 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_GUITBLZ.m4a
_BLZ_MNH Laid Back Blues 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_BLZ_MNH.m4a
_TBLZSLT Texas Blues 12/8 w/ Trading Solos 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_TBLZSLT.m4a
_TBLZSLS Texas Blues 12/8 w/ Guitar Solo 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_TBLZSLS.m4a
_TBLZSLR Texas Blues 12/8 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_TBLZSLR.m4a
_TBLZSLP Texas Blues 12/8 w/ Piano Solo 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_TBLZSLP.m4a
_TBLZSLB Texas Blues 12/8 w/ Brent 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_TBLZSLB.m4a
_TBLRKSL Blues Rock 12/8 w/ Alto Solo 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_TBLRKSL.m4a
_CMPFBHF Campfire, Hank Fingerpicked 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_CMPFBHF.m4a
_CMPFBH3 Campfire, Hank w/ Bass 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_CMPFBH3.m4a
_CMPFBH2 Campfire, Hank 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_CMPFBH2.m4a
_MONDOR Slow Swing Blues w/ Organ 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_MONDOR.m4a
_CJIGBZK Celtic Jig w/ Band 110 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_CJIGBZK.m4a
_FPBTACS Acoustic Folk w/ 2 Fingerpicked Guitars 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_FPBTACS.m4a
_FPBNTSS Slow Swing Country w/ 2 Fingerpicked Guitars 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_FPBNTSS.m4a
_PSSO128 12/8 Country Ballad w/ Pedal Steel Solo 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_PSSO128.m4a
_P128PNS Slow Pop 12/8 w/ Piano Solo 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_P128PNS.m4a
_C128PNS Slow Country 12/8 w/ Piano Solo 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_C128PNS.m4a
_CT128BR Country 12/8 Brent Electric Guitar Solo 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_CT128BR.m4a
_POPPNOS Pop Piano 12/8 Ballad 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_POPPNOS.m4a
_MONDAY Slow Swing 8ths Blues 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_MONDAY.m4a
_CRYSTAL Country 12/8 Ballad w/ Pedal Steel 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_CRYSTAL.m4a
_ElBlz1 [RT n/a] Slow Electric Blues 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_ElBlz1.m4a
_AcBlz2 [RT n/a] Slow Blues 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_AcBlz2.m4a
_AcBlz1 Sparse Blues 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_AcBlz1.m4a
_SLOBLZ1 Slow and Gritty Blues 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/_SLOBLZ1.m4a


Styles with Some MIDI in them

M_S128BL Slow 12/8 Blues MIDI Piano 85 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/M_S128BL.m4a
M_BLZ128 Slow 12/8 Bluesy Band w/ Piano 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/M_BLZ128.m4a
M_PNC128 12/8 Country w/ MIDI Piano 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/M_PNC128.m4a
M_TBLSLP Solo Texas Blues Rock 12/8 MIDI 60 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/M_TBLSLP.m4a
M_C128PN Slow Country 12/8 w/ Piano Solo 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/M_C128PN.m4a


Styles with Some/All MIDI in them
=AG_BESS Blues Gospel w/ Organ 62 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/=AG_BESS.m4a
=PED128B Slow Country Ballad 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/=PED128B.m4a
=CR128_B 12/8 Country Ballad 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/=CR128_B.m4a
=BGPOP_B Country Swing Ballad 85 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/=BGPOP_B.m4a
=SWBA_TB Soul Ballad w/ Trombone 85 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/=SWBA_TB.m4a
=FLK12_T Blues 12/8 w/ Trumpet 75 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/=FLK12_T.m4a
=CAR_BAS Carey 12/8 w/ Alto Sax 70 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/=CAR_BAS.m4a
=LA_PB_B LA Pop Ballad w/ Acoustic Bass 90 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/=LA_PB_B.m4a
=CNT_OTB Old Country w/ Trombone 130 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/=CNT_OTB.m4a
AG_BESS AG_BESS - Bluesy 12/8 Gospel 62 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/AG_BESS.m4a
TEXASBL Texas Blues - 12/8 Slow Blues 55 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/TEXASBL.m4a
-CS128^4 Country Shuffle 128 62 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-CS128^4.m4a
-CS128^5 Country Shuffle 128 62 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-CS128^5.m4a
-CS128^6 Country Shuffle 128 62 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-CS128^6.m4a
NR_NORJ+ NORJ 12/8 Nashville Rock + 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/NR_NORJ+.m4a
BuddyG BuddyG - Raucous 12/8 Blues 95 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/BuddyG.m4a
-CS128^2 Country Shuffle 128 70 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-CS128^2.m4a
-CS128^1 Country Shuffle 128 70 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-CS128^1.m4a
-CLTJG^2 Celtic Jig 125 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-CLTJG^2.m4a
-CLTJG^1 Celtic Jig 125 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-CLTJG^1.m4a
-CLTJG^4 Celtic Jig 120 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-CLTJG^4.m4a
-PO128^7 Pop128-7-Brushes Style 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-PO128^7.m4a
-PO128^6 Pop128-6-SideStick, Snare Style 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-PO128^6.m4a
-PO128^5 Pop128-5-Brushes, Snare Style 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-PO128^5.m4a
-PO128^4 Pop128-4-Brushes, SideStick Style 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-PO128^4.m4a
-PO128^3 Pop128-3-Brushes, Ride Style 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-PO128^3.m4a
-PO128^2 Pop128-2-Snare, Ride Style 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-PO128^2.m4a
-PO128^1 Pop128-1-SideStick, Ride Style 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-PO128^1.m4a
BEEBSLO BeeB Slow - Slow 12/8 Blues 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/BEEBSLO.m4a
Islands Islands - Slow 12/8 60's Pop 70 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/Islands.m4a
Psyk128 Psyk 12/8 - Slow 12/8 Pop/Rock 50 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/Psyk128.m4a
-PERCY~ Percy-Slow 12/8 50s Pop 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-PERCY~.m4a
-MudySlo Mudy Slow Slow Blues 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-MudySlo.m4a
-C_CONWY Conway-Classic 50s 12/8 Country 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/-C_CONWY.m4a
Oreg1 Oreg 1 - 12/8 Ambient World Beat 105 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/Oreg1.m4a
Gloria Gloria - Brit 80s Rock Shuffle 110 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/Gloria.m4a
12_8Surf 12/8 Surf - Slow 12/8 - 60s Pop 70 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/12_8Surf.m4a
FOLK12_8 Folk 12/8 - 60s Folk Groups 75 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/FOLK12_8.m4a
Tarentla Tarentella - World Styles - Italy 140 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/Tarentla.m4a
128Rok1 12/8 Power Rock Ballad 70 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/128Rok1.m4a
128Rok2 12/8 Loud Rock Feel 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/128Rok2.m4a
PADDY Paddy - Celtic Jig - World Styles 120 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/PADDY.m4a
Celt_JIG Celtic Jig Style - World Styles 120 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/Celt_JIG.m4a
C_CONWAY Conway - Classic 50s 12/8 Country 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/C_CONWAY.m4a
J!SATCH Vintage Jazz - Satch Slow 12/8 Pop 80 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/J!SATCH.m4a
PERCY!~ Percy - Slow 12/8 50s Pop 65 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/PERCY!~.m4a
CAREY128 Carey 12/8 - Top 40 12/8 70 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/CAREY128.m4a
CELTIC2 Celtic 2 - Contemporary Celtic 125 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/CELTIC2.m4a
CELTIC1 Celtic 1 - Contemporary Celtic 125 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/CELTIC1.m4a
KILARNEY Irish-Shotiche 12/8 Style 110 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/KILARNEY.m4a
Z4COUN12 Country 12/8 Feel 120 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/Z4COUN12.m4a
REGGAE_2 Reggae 2 165 http://demos.pgmusic.com/audio/allstyledemos2/REGGAE_2.m4a

The real issue, however is that for a 6/8 song, you are limited as to where chords can change. I don't have a problem using a swing style for 6/8, but I can only change chords on beats 1 and 4 (of 6/8). If I use a waltz style, then I can change chords more often, but the arrangement can get too busy. That's the trade off.

Thanks John, for clarifying.

Well, yes, I absolutely agree with this comment if the PG Music product was only used for listening. But PG Music has developed the product to be far more than that, it is both sophisticated and complex and includes notation and graphics that visually represent what the user is both playing and listening to.

And if the user hears 1-2-3-4-5-6 like you state, then the user should visually see 1-2-3-4-5-6, or have I missed something here?

I apologize in advance if I've misunderstood the connection between listening to 6 eighth-note beats and seeing notation that only adds up to 4 quarter notes.

When I work with a live band, I Never count a 6/8 song in as 4/4 time (emphasis supplied). Audible and Visual should co-relate, surely. Others mileage may vary, but unfortunately mine doesn't. I'm not trying to be confrontational, just stating my opinion based on my extensive music theory learnings.

The chart should accurately reflect what the users hears as well as what the user reads, otherwise, why has written music ever bothered to have such as thing as 6/8 notation - when it apparently really belongs in a 4/4 world?

That's interesting. When I enter 12/8 into the search box I get about three styles. Never did a search actually specifying an instrument. Thanks for the list PG, I'll sort through them and try the same search syntax you used.

Although a lot, looking at that list, are 12/8, 6/8 STYLES where the rhythm section for the most part is giving the true feel. The guitars are still essentially 4/4. Now IF I was using full styles...that can be tolerable but I use BIAB to create mostly solo guitar parts (rhythm) which is why I was asking after definitive 6/8 12/8 guitars (preferable acoustic). Still I will try that search and see what's what.

))) The chart should accurately reflect what the users hears as well as what the user reads,

The thread o/p is about if any good 6/8 guitar styles exist, and I posted 93 with audio links.

What the notation shows isn't relevant to whether the styles exist and can be used. Many of our RealTracks show no notation at all, yet they still exist and can be used. None of our drum styles show drum notation, yet they still exist and can be used.

My overall opinion is that we have
- lots of nice RealTracks 6/8 guitar styles (see 93 posted links above), and
- it would be good if we could enter more than one chord per beat so there could be a chord on every triplet. And
- Having an option to toggle notation display between 4/4 and 12/8 for any track would be good too ( similar toggle for 3/4 and 9/8)

Well now, the very first one I tried, when listening to just the guitar comping (sans efx)...has got some possibility. For the record its was _SPOP128.STY 12/8 Soul Pop and gtr 2583. Even though the name of the RT states swing - it "feels" 6/8.

So thanks to PG you have opened my eyes a bit here. Sometimes one needs to go a bit beyond what is presented, and understand not everything is spelled out.

Okay now I think I can get somewhere. It is still a cool theoretical discussion though

Actually Peter it was 6/8 RT guitars, NOT styles

Although, I will say one thing. There are 6/8 songs that you do actually count in 6 (not 2 or 4) (a previous comment was made that this was not the case). They are generally slower 6/8 songs, but as a church choir director, we have many of them, and I have to think about "down (1), left (2), left (3), right (4), right (5), up (6)" to keep the choir in time. Faster 6/8 songs do get done in "2", however. You could direct in 6 for the faster songs, but you'd look like a hummingbird flapping it's wings if you tried.

Fwiw, I don't think there's any difference between 6/8 and 12/8 ( i.e. 12/8 is just like 2 bars of 6/8). They both apply to slow and fast tempos, and seem to be used interchangeably.

If songs had an odd number of bars in 6/8, then it wouldn't convert to 12/8. The same thing happens in 4/4 through, where there can be a 2/4 bar or a 6/4 bar at places.

The whole problem revolves around notation (as far as biab is concerned). 6/8 being notated as 4/4 is a royal pain in the butt, musicians will always want to be counted in 6/8 for a 6/8 tune or song & NEVER 4/4. As already stated in this thread, it makes working in a daw with rendered audio or midi difficult & as for making sheet music, well, it makes it a long drawn out thing to do. 6/8 is exactly that & trying to make a case for it being ok to use 4/4 for the notation of it is just downright backwards. I concieve that it may be difficult to now rewrite band in a box to cater for things it was never written to do in its infancy BUT it is no longer in infancy & should absolutely be able to do things the correct way without fudging around to try & fit timings where the should not go (6/8 into 4/4 being the prime example)

Yes, I'm also another user who shares the same concerns as do many others.

When I mentioned that concern in this thread, there was a response from PG Music distancing the subject matter from the separate notation issue. It stated:

Accordingly, I separately referred to another thread that is directly related to this issue.

I hope you and others would lend your support there also. If so, eventually this long overdue issue might be fixed.

& now you see exactly why I stopped posting in the forums....lack of response from devellopers when its something they don't want to deal with or will be too much work. Rewire questions were dealt with in exactly the same way, trying to fudge or just plain ignoring the question. 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, etc....they are ADVERTISED as real tracks in the irish styles BUT are absolutely not worth working on the notation part of that because....these time signatures can be forced into 4/4 if you have a warped sense of time!!!!

With respect, you can differ with an opinion, but "the developer" has responded as much or more here than on any other subject, with well-thought reasoning.

with respect, explain "well thought". There is none behind the given reasoning whatsoever. 6/8 is 6/8. 12/8 is 12/8...& in no connected to 4/4 in notation sense

I agree with you about notation. The developer just said above that it would be nice to be able to toggle between 4/4 and 12/8. There is a relationship that has been explained in this and other threads. I do understand if you don't agree with the approach.

This thread wasn't about notation. It was about someone looking for strumming guitars with a 6/8 feel to make backing tracks. And I posted 91 links in this thread for Realtracks guitars with w 6/8 or 12/8 feel. Many of which are Celtic 6/8.

There is no notation for 6/8 and 12/8. They are notated in 4/4. This doesn't stop you or anyone from making and playing great backing tracks. It does stop you making lead sheets with notation that displays in 6/8 or 12/8. It definitely doesn't stop you dragging audio files your DAW because WAV files don't have a tempo or time signature In them (unless you acidize them)

As stated above, we plan on a toggle switch to change notation display from 4/4 to 12/8. This won't change how the music is played, or the tempo. Just change how it is notated and printed.

))) these time signatures can be forced into 4/4 if you have a warped sense of time!!!

Well you make call me "warped" for thinking of 12/8 as 4//4 with triplets, but as John Lennon said in Imagine "I'm not the only one". If you want to see and hear an explanation, check this out, https://youtu.be/0JeIiNf6Zb8

Thanks Peter I watched that, good explanation, not trying to change the subject but because of that I found these 2 great vidz on the side,
now I know why Bob Dylan said “Keep a good head and always carry a light bulb.”

Thank you for answering Peter, I very much look forward to the toggling

Thanks bupper