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eddie1261
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Well I think (though I agree its nice to be able to write and maybe perform some of you own songs to an audience) that it would probably be annoying to have to go out for a nights entertainment and have a band push mostly their own little known songs into your face. There you have to ask the question "What are you going out looking for?" If you are going out to hear your favorite songs from the 80s, you can find that, and don't go to see a band who does their own stuff. If you prefer to hear originals (which I am) then don't go see the oldies band. But for person v1 to go out to a v2 kind of room and then sit and complain or criticize, that's completely wrong on every level. Like a vegetarian going to a steak house and complaining that everybody around him is eating meat and it is his choice to not eat meat. Good copy bands are staffed by very good players. It just isn't what I go out to hear. I am extremely fortunate to have a room 3 miles from my house, a VERY nice room, that on Wed/Thur usually has acts that are of the singer/songwriter variety. In fact on a lot of nights she will have a 6pm act, an 8pm act, and on weekends also a 10pm act. Everybody in northeast Ohio knows and loves Jill Bacon-Madden of Jilly's Music Room as a HUGE supporter of local musicians and artists. She has turned her place into the kind of room that the grapevine of indy bands across the country knows about, and she gets a lot of different stuff in there. She'll get Nashville rockabilly one night and then NY City folkies the next, and maybe gypsy folk the next. There is Wednesday jazz night. Some nights she has movie night where she shows old classic movies, usually of the D-rate variety, and cult movies. Some nights she has a big trivia night. Still other nights she will bring in local artists and have an art night (Dr Sketchy!). The food in that place is amazing, and it's just a top shelf kind of place to go. Music is king though, and she rarely, if ever, has a bad act in there. So the point of all those words was that there is a place for everybody to go for music where they can find their happy place. Plenty of music pizza and everybody can get a slice.
Last edited by eddie1261; 11/09/16 11:26 AM.
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))) Irving Berlin wrote a zillion songs, some of them great ones, and he could only play the piano in one key, and I've heard couldn't play it well in that key. Yes, Irving Berlin only played in the key of Gb. But he invented a transposing piano and used it to play in all keys You can see him demo it here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bO8VZoRw214 I've heard of the transposing piano. Thanks for the link. Today he could do it with a button or dial. But his lack of fluency on the piano certainly didn't affect his ability to write great music. Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
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It's tough for a lot of people to go out and listen to a singer-songwriter doing his/her own songs. Lack of familiarity is the problem. Others love it. There is certainly room for both in the world.
The important thing is to play music and be true to your own desires, whether it is cover tunes or your own, or even both.
I know a few bands that play covers and then after they have the audience already on their side for the evening, include a couple of originals. That works too.
I don't see why it should be an either/or situation.
Notes
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To me it's not lack of familiarity, it's that the songs are bad.
There's a reason the classic songwriters are stars.
On KKJZ here in LA they have the "Indy Hour" on Saturday and Sunday afternoons as part of the blues programming. The music is always kickin, smokin hot stuff. That's because over the last 30 years there are literally hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of players who are in various stages of good. From merely good to awesomely good. They're all just like me or I'm like them, whatever. Good solid players who can't write for [*****].
All the lyrics going over this killer music is way too obvious, cliched, banal and trite. Did I cover all the possibilities?
A real song has lyrics that make you think. Good lyrics is poetry and poetry is not obvious. It catches your ear because you can't understand it right off, you know you like it but can't quite catch it so you listen again and again and even read about it.
That's a real songwriter.
Bob
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eddie1261
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To me it's not lack of familiarity, it's that the songs are bad.
Do you think Diane Warren sat down at her piano and started writing hits immediately? Those of us who do try to write know that you are going to write about 100 awful songs before you write one that is anything close to not as bad as that first 100. Does that mean you quit trying? Quit performing your songs to see what is received and what is not? How did you sound on your first piano lesson? There isn't a songwriter out there that doesn't think everything he writes is gold. The people will let you know if it's gold or pyrite by about the first chorus. The way you get to be good at anything is to do it bad for a while first. Remember, even if you hit .300, you fail 7 out of 10 times.
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...............................
A real song has lyrics that make you think. Good lyrics is poetry and poetry is not obvious. It catches your ear because you can't understand it right off, you know you like it but can't quite catch it so you listen again and again and even read about it.
That's a real songwriter.
Bob Bob I never thought of it that way but you are right. You have a great insight to music and lyrics.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
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eddie1261
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Great song are aural, intellectual and visceral, meaning that the have to be pleasing to listen to, make you think, and make you feel. The best example I can give is Sting. He tells stories in song as well as anybody, and after all, what are songs if not stories set to music?
There is a woman who is from the Cleveland area but now lives in Nashville. Her name is Anne E. DeChant. She is one of the best songwriters I know. Her lyrics are incredible from the standpoint that she paints pictures with them. Her use of metaphor is phenomenal. One song from her last album, entitled The Sun Coming In, is called Sunday Morning Drive (which charted well on the Americana chart). It's a story about a family piling into the car after church on a Sunday morning and just driving to nowhere. As the song passes you can just SEE the kids in the back playing, goofing around being kids, laughing.... and if any of you ever did that when you were kids, the relation to the lyrics will be palpable. Give her a listen on YouTube. Just search for her name. Song titles to look for are the aforementioned, Running Red Lights, Better Than This, Water in Whiskey, and Into Me. That's the starter kit. Many of you may want to visit her web page and buy some music after you hear her. She is someone I admire deeply and I am happy to call her friend.
THAT kind of music is what I go out to hear. ANYBODY can play Free bird, as evidenced by the fact that EVERYBODY does.
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When I listen to a song, I listen to the music first, hearing the words only as articulations with no meaning. If the music interests me enough to give it more listening, I eventually get to the words. Which is probably why I suck at writing lyrics.
I'm interested in the melody, counter-melody, and how all the background parts interact with each other to support the melody. If there are themes and variations on those themes, it gets even better.
But I admit it, I'm weird.
Notes
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Actually, I'm the same way. I'm a player, not a singer so I never paid the slightest attention to lyrics except for certain musical cues which is why I never paid any attention to Dylan. All I heard was crappy folk guitar strumming and some neck harp with nasally bad vocals so I just turned it off. I can't count the times someone says here's one of my favorite songs and he tries to sing the first phrase and I have no clue. As a keyboard player starting with organ, if I can hear the musical hook for it, no problem. Oh yeah, that's the intro to Gimme Some Lovin or Oye Como Va or Elizabeth Reed. What's the words for that? Who cares. Like you said I'm listening to all the musical cues.
Bob
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There are songs where I listen in anticipation of a single riff, or a brass hit, or vocal inflection that may appear only one time in the song, because it really grabbed me (not that I don't like the rest of the song).
I do listen to lyrics, but I also generally listen to the music first (melody, interesting harmonies, interesting accompaniment, etc), and then the lyrics. And in general, I prefer songs that you can both play instrumentally as well as vocally and both ways are engaging.
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Which is probably why I suck at writing lyrics. I used to suck at free throws. Then one summer I spent the whole summer shooting free throws. I learned how to shoot free throws. The however here is that in that case I WANTED to learn how tho shoot free throws. If you don't care about writing songs that have lyrics, that would be time wasted for you to sit and write lyrics until you get the prosody aspect down, where you say what you want to say and the lyrics fit the cadence of the music properly. It can be hard to make things rhyme and still be coherent and carry your thought. Somebody at your level though, Notes, your MUSIC tells the story, like Grover Washington's Winelight or Let It Flow. Those songs did not need lyrics. You know exactly what Grover wanted to say from hearing that melody. However, not everybody gets that concept.
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Actually, I'm the same way. I'm a player, not a singer so I never paid the slightest attention to lyrics except for certain musical cues<...snip...>
Bob I ended up being a singer by necessity. After years of dealing with bands and depending on singers I decided that I need to learn this myself. Some of the singers were diva/divo types, some were great, most were in between, but sooner or later a band broke up and it was easy to find musicians, but difficult to find professional singers. It took a lot of practice. Fortunately as a trained wind instrument player I know how to breathe with my diaphragm and I know how to use breath support. That got step one of learning to be a singer out of the way. Then was learning the muscle control needed to sing on pitch and use expressive devices so that it comes out like "SINGING" instead of singing (if you know what I mean. I'm still not a great singer. I think I am physically challenged for that, the voice is a little nasal, and it lacks the 'edge' (opposite of muddy) that is all so important. Fortunately, my wife is a first class, excellent singer, so she gets the hard songs. I sing about half of them in our duo, and if need be, I can do a single (I'd rather not). The songs that I sing I pay attention to the lyrics so that I can try to get across what the songwriter is wanting. Singing a torch song like a pretty ballad doesn't really work. I use the same singing instincts that I use when playing sax - but I'm better at sax. Still, when listening to something new, the music is what I hear first. The vocals are articulations with no meaning at first with the possible exception of a repeated hook. I'm listening to the music, how the voice interacts with all the other parts, how the other parts support the lead lines, and how the rhythm instruments interact with each other. I even listen to the vocal expressive devices as a musical instrument, and the attacks simply as articulations. If the music of the song can hold my interest enough, I'll get to the words. But I know, I'm weird. Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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